You can listen to Episode S5E01 right here!
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Hello and welcome to the Third Age design podcast, and happy launch day to us. We’ve been sharing essential information on senior environments for exactly five years now, and thank you for joining us on the journey. I’m Lori Pinkerton Rolet, you probably know who you are, but you may or may not know today’s guests, it’s Tony Westgarth and Dawn Scott from AkzoNobel, one of the world’s largest and most established paint manufacturers. We’ll be talking color palettes and finishes in today’s episode, and we’ll even tell you where you can get your very own LRV meter, and in our innovation spotlight, I’ll introduce you to a new award-winning concept out of Japan for washing people in their beds. Could this alter the need for assisted bathrooms in senior living developments? Did you know that the Russian artist Kandinsky had synesthesia? If you don’t know what that means, you’re about to find out. Synesthesia is when your brain roots sensory information to unrelated senses, so you experience more than one sense at the exact same time. So for example, people with this condition might link colors to specific numbers and letters…very unusual. Kandinsky said, ‘Color has a power which directly influences the soul’. Well, today we’re not going to cover color theory, although we will be doing that in a future episode, but rather how color palettes are developed, for example, for dementia, and how and why does the use of color vary between countries? What are the best finishes to use for older eyes? It’s our job to highlight important information from around the world for senior living. And if you go to our website at ThirdAge.Design and hit the ‘Join Us’ button, you’ll also automatically receive ‘A TAD Extra’ exclusive information for our community members. The new one adds context to our review of the Hogeweyk Village in the Netherlands and the key takeaways from that really unique site. What are you waiting for? Go ahead and sign up. The Third Age Design podcast is supported by Wissner-Bosserhoff. Elevate nursing care with intelligent beds from Wissner-Bosserhoff, blending modern smart-day technology with comfort, empowering caregivers worldwide. Discover more at www.wi-bo.com Okay, let’s get started in a world of colour…My mother’s best friend, Eloise, had her photo taken as she was dying. She was wearing a multicolored feather boa and holding up a sign saying, ‘live life colorfully.’ It was a striking image of an older woman, emaciated from a debilitating illness, but literally wrapped in color. This was the legacy she wanted as her final words to the world. What is your relationship to color? What about those you have in care or for whom you’re designing? I’m going to admit that this particular topic is a passion of mine. In fact, if you go to the TAD website, you’ll find a link to my TEDx talk on this topic, entitled ‘Colour for the Seven Ages of Man.’ And I’ve done independent research on color for the very company that we’re representing here today, AkzoNobel an international leader in paints based in the Netherlands. And today we’ve got experts from AkzoNobel, both of whom work out of the UK, which is really good because my Dutch is about as good as my Korean. Tony Westgarth has been a dedicated professional in the paint industry for the past 30 years, so a newcomer. Throughout his career, he’s held various customer facing roles and is currently the specification development manager for Kent and East Sussex in the United Kingdom. Importantly for this podcast, Tony specializes in paint specification solutions across all building sectors, including care. By understanding the unique needs of each project, he ensures that every specification not only meets technical requirements, but also aligns with the creative vision of the design team. And as an experienced interior designer, Dawn Scott has dedicated her over 20-year career to using the transformative power of colour To enhance people’s lives. Her expertise lies in creating bespoke research-based color and design schemes for public buildings, such as hospitals, schools and care homes, by harmonizing color, interior design, and nature. She’s passionate about making spaces accessible and inclusive, especially for those with conditions like dementia or those who are neurodivergent. As the mother of an autistic daughter and with experience of dementia in her own family, Dawn is deeply committed to empowering people to navigate their surroundings and increase independence. Tony and Dawn, thank you for joining me on the podcast today.
Tony Westgarth
Thanks.
Dawn Scott
Yeah, thank you for the invite.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Well, today we’re discussing the use of color and care in dementia environments, and I really would like to start with how AkzoNobel differentiates the two between people in care who may or may not develop dementia, or when there are people who are different stages of or different even types of dementia. So can you speak as to how that is sort of split out?
Dawn Scott
Yeah, so I think I’ll probably take you, take, take the questions about color, so obviously AkzoNobel recognize that care environments encompass diverse populations, like, say, including those individuals with or without dementia. And so designing for dementia requires a more tailored approach to design, particularly in the use of color. And research indicates that obviously individuals with dementia experience changes in perception. So for example, the lens of an aged eye becomes more opaque and then changes the appearance of surfaces and colors. So obviously that makes them more sensitive to certain colors and contrast. So to address those needs, we developed a specific Dementia-Friendly color palette and design guide which has evidence-based curated color palettes and bespoke design principles in it. And the aim primarily is to kind of aid navigation, reduce anxiety and create familiarity for those living with dementia. So we have created a kind of separate, stand-alone guide that is primarily for designing for spaces for those people with dementia,
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Right. And so if you’re designing a care home, somebody listening to this podcast, an operator or an architect or a designer, would you recommend that they use the dementia palette throughout in case somebody develops dementia later, or are there certain colors within the range that you would say you might steer away from those if You’re trying to future proof the needs of your residents?
Dawn Scott
Yeah. So I would say, if you design with dementia in mind, because exactly some people may develop dementia, and you know, the statistics are that one in three people born today will develop dementia. So I would say, start with designing for dementia and the colors, and we’ll perhaps come on to that a little bit more detail, but the colors are about using them colors that are more saturated and brighter. So I would say, start with that, and then your…automatically going to be appropriate for people that don’t have dementia, I think is the weight that I would say to look at that.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Okay, yes, and we will definitely get into some of the specific color guidance that you offer in a moment. But let me just ask Tony, does guidance in finish differ between care and dementia, or for care and dementia versus other parts of the population, or even including neuro-divergence?
Tony Westgarth
Yes, we would look at more using more matte finishes, specifically on walls and on the trim as well. So your doors, your screen boards, your architraves, use a satin finish, or an eggshell finish, something that’s not going to provide a glare, like if you were using a glossy finish on a wall or on the skirting board or a door, it can provide a glare. So people with dementia can find that disturbing and hard to read things, and the colour sort of bangs off it.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Let me just ask you something very, very specific. Then, so with walls Tony, you know, you might use a matte surface to prevent any glare of any kind, from a durability standpoint, in terms of and various parts of the world use different words to determine, you know, what is a skirting board? They would call them a baseboard, for example, in the United States, or an architrave might just be called a molding. In order to get the durability that you need and the ability to clean from an infection control standpoint. What finish do you recommend as a specification expert for things like baseboards and moldings and things surrounding doors or doors themselves, for example?
Tony Westgarth
Well again, you would use a satin finish or an HR finish, but on walls and things we you’re looking at different sort of things. We wouldn’t necessarily specify cleaning products for dementia patients, because we do have products which will combat e-coli and things like that that we usually look at the more the healthcare in hospitals and things like this. Yes. That’s…you could use it in a dementia area that that’s not a problem, but generally, I would go with a durable finish on a wall. That’s a matt finish, because you don’t want to have put your building up, and then two years down the lane, your buildings occupied, fully occupied, and then somebody’s got to come around and redecorate, because that’s obviously going to cause a disturbance. So we would re recommend things that are going to have a longevity, extend the maintenance to maybe five, seven years plus for redecoration, put a cleaning regime in there. And when you’re looking at cleaning make sure that you’re using cleaning products which aren’t high in VOCs, because obviously that’s going to put formaldehydes in the air. So you want to try and steer it from those. But the more cleaning regime that you’ve got, it’s going to be less bacteria around. But if you’re looking at going belt and braces, sort of in the actual product themselves, so you could apply those to molds, and then when that’s being cleaned, it stays active within the product, or the lifespan of the product,
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
RIght, and can I just as an aside, and then I’ve got a…my next question is for Dawn but as an aside, can you just tell me off the record in front of millions of people. Does it make…Does adding an anti-fungicidal element to a ceiling paint in a wet room, for example? Does it actually make a difference?
Tony Westgarth
Yes, it does. So it will combat fungal growth. I’m talking I’m talking I’m not necessarily talking about fungal growth in the hygiene environment. I’m talking about more…it’s actually a silver by biosafe that we add into the products, and that additive in there will combat it. It’ll stop infection on those services within about two hours, it’ll stop bring this down, the levels down. And even when you’re cleaning those, it still stays in for the life of the product. So it’s an additive into the product. So it does, it does work.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
So these additives are worthwhile, and if you’re, if you’re adding them to your budget, you’re doing it for a reason, not just to tick a box. Yes, yes, Excellent. I’m really very glad to know that, because we put those in a lot. So it’s good to know. Dawn, I’m aware that in the UK, your company teamed up with the British Research Establishment, or BRE to produce this Dementia-Friendly color palette which you spoke about just a minute ago. Was this work considered specific to the UK? Or how would that roll out internationally, knowing from my own research that I’ve done that in different cultures, both the natural daylight is different, which obviously affects the way we see colours, but also our relationship to colour in different cultures differs. So how broad a spectrum could one use that looking at a global marketplace?
Dawn Scott
Okay, I’ll answer that, but I’m going to just add something to the previous question. You just asked Tony about surface finishes, if that’s okay? Please. So something that I would add is that traditionally, a high sheen gloss was thought to be more durable on that kind of what we would commonly refer to as trim surfaces. And now, obviously we have a lot more hard-wearing products that are not a gloss finish. So actually, using a satin or a satin wood or an eggshell finish on those trims means that you get better color differentiation as well, because a gloss finish will make a color look darker as well. So just something to also be mindful of when specifying products that if you want to get the best color rendition, then a matte or a satin wood or eggshell finish is better than a high gloss finish. So that’s just something from a color perspective to add about finishes for what we would commonly refer to as trim. So thank you. That’s that aside. So back to this question. Yes. So whilst the work we did with BRE was based on UK research and guidelines, the key principles that came out of that are universal. So it addresses those perceptual changes that are common in dementia, such as sensitivity to contrast color and contrast and glare, and obviously provided evidence-based solutions for navigation, safety and comfort. So we also acknowledge that there are kind of cultural and regional considerations around colour and colour associations, such as, you know, red is a warning in some cultures, but celebratory in others. And as you said, natural daylight differs by geography. So as a result, we also created a global brochure, which is called ‘Human Centered Design’ brochure which has more tailored recommendations that reflect local preferences and traditions where appropriate. So we have slightly different variations that we have kind of rolled out globally. So yes, we’ve, we’ve kind of taken all of that into consideration and made it more appropriate.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
That’s fantastic. And how often as a company do you think you’ll be re researching or updating any of this? Are there plans for that, or is that a rollout or a continuing program of some kind?
Dawn Scott
Yeah, a bit of both, really. So the guidelines are reviewed and updated regularly to incorporate any latest research and also feedback from users or care professionals. So we look to organizations like Stirling University, who have their Dementia Design Center. They’re kind of at the forefront, and also other kind of academic institutes like Sussex University. So we kind of we look at those, and kind of keep abreast of kind of the latest information like that. So typically, every few years, we would look at updating our kind of advice. And obviously we remain flexible in the interim to make sure the team in particular, so the team that work with me in colour services, we ensure that we kind of up to date. So our projects that we do on a regular basis have that the latest kind of advice and guidance in there, but we are currently in the process of overhauling the whole global document that I mentioned the Human-Centered Design Principles. That’s it work in process at the moment and will be updated and due out early next year. Yeah, that’s got an extra level of information that perhaps we didn’t know about before, about designing for neurodiversity and that sort of thing. So, yeah, that will be due early next year.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
We may follow up on that on the podcast and add some links to it for people to look into that further. Just sticking with you, with you Dawn for a moment, you mentioned about saturated, more saturated colors being one of the principles that you’re looking at. Can you summarize any of the other key advice within the current guidelines in relation to color?
Dawn Scott
Yeah, so the one of the key things is ensuring that there is sufficient colour contrast between adjoining critical surfaces, and the way that you would do that is through light reflectance value. So LRVs and understanding the LRV of a surface means that you can ensure there is sufficient contrast which needs to be 30% minimum. So you would typically do that by looking for 30 points of light reflectance value, and that’s the most critical thing, because that’s important for wayfinding and for safety and hazard perception. So essentially, what that means is ensuring that the ceiling is sufficiently different from the walls, the walls are sufficiently different color from the doors and the architrave and the floor and so on. So that’s kind of one of the key things. And then, as you said, it’s about using more saturated color. So by that, we mean using stronger and brighter colours that help to provide those clear contrasts to aid navigation and ultimately reduce confusion, which can lead to, you know, risk of falls and what have you so it’s about that safety perception. As part of the deterioration in the aged eye, blue and green colors tend to look more grey, so the advice is to use warmer tones of those colours rather than avoid them altogether. So that’s kind of the colour aspect. And then the other thing, I think Tony touched on it around kind of glare, around surface finishes. So again, it’s about avoiding surfaces that have really high glossy, high reflective surfaces, because they can create glare, which can cause confusion and also make surfaces appear different to what they perhaps are. And then also around that it’s kind of avoiding things like strong or complex or really geometric patterns as well, because they can also cause confusion. So I think that’s the three kinds of key parts of the design principles.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
And Dulux paints, which is a brand owned by your company has a very tricky way of showing LRVs. So my company, Park Grove design…the day job, if you will, we have two LRV meters that we’ve imported in from the United States that we use so we can do our own testing in house. A lot of companies do not have that anywhere in the world, necessarily, but you actually include your LRVs in the very long run of numbers that you have for your paints in the trade deck, as opposed to the named things if you’re using a trade deck, who should speak to what those numbers mean?
Dawn Scott
Yeah, so I think just to kind of clarify what that is in our exactly that in the Dulux trade fan deck, all of our colours have a colour notation, and the first part of that notation is around the hue or the colour family. So for example, it might say something like 30 BB, which would mean blue, blue. So that tells you the colour family that the colour comes from. And that bit is quite obvious in some of the bolder, brighter colours, but in the paler colours, you don’t necessarily know what the undertone is. So that’s quite an important thing to know which hue or which colour family comes. And then the second part of the notation is exactly as you said. that’s the light reflectance value. So that might say something like 08, or 85 and essentially that’s the light reflectance value. So the lower the number, the darker the color is. So for example, pure brilliant white has an LRV of around 93 so if that was a notation, that second number, there would be 93 and then the last part of our colour notation is the chroma. So this is how bright or strong a color is, and that goes from zero to 999 again, the higher number, the brighter the colour. So some yellows, for example, would be, you know, very high in that so you so that’s a way to find the light reflectance value if you’re working with the Dulux trade fan deck. But also, as you touched on, some Dulux colors just have a name. So if it has a name, like ‘Chic Shadow’, you can’t automatically tell what the light reflectance value is. However, if you went to the Dulux trade paint expert website and went to the colour section and put in ‘Chic Shadow’. It actually tells you the light reflectance values of all of our colours there as well. So that’s quite a handy thing to go if you only know a name. The same with our heritage, the Dulux heritage colours all have a name as well, rather than that. So again, you can go and find the light reflectance values of those on the website.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
That’s excellent. Thank you so much. And Tony, Dawn was just speaking about, you know, maybe not using gloss, using one of the other finishes, either a satin or an eggshell, is one recommended from a durability standpoint more than the other? Or how does somebody making a decision as to whether or not to use, for example, eggshell in these environments versus satin wood on what is that decision based?
Tony Westgarth
It’s a good question, because we’ve got various different types of a few different sandwoods, eggshells. So if you’ve got a project, we can provide a specification for you, so you won’t have any issues further down the line, really.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Right, That’s so helpful. And Dawn, in your introduction that I that I read you mentioned about nature, and we’ve got a podcast coming up next month on biophilic design. Again, we did one a couple of years ago as well, because it’s such an important topic. Does biophilic design and paints or surface coatings…how, if at all, are they related? Is it just through colour or is there any other relationship between biophilic design and paints?
Dawn Scott
The key thing, obviously, from, from my perspective, is the colour. You know, we spend 90% of our time indoors, for most of us, so in the UK, yes, yeah, absolutely, yeah. I’m not quite sure what the figures are elsewhere, but I certainly probably spend quite, perhaps nearly, slightly more than. That. But, yeah, absolutely. So I think, yeah, but, you know, biophilic design is all about reconnecting us to nature. It’s, you know, innately good for our well-being. So absolutely, it’s about bringing those elements in which, from a colour perspective, is exactly about the using natural colours, you know, textures, finishes that mimic that natural materials. And something I would kind of add to that is that when we talk about colours in nature, um, about using nature inspired colour palettes, people automatically assume that it’s just blues and greens, you know, yes, the planet, of course, is, you know, that’s the majority of the colour here. But every colour is found in nature, so you can absolutely use other colours. Anything that you find in nature, and nature is great at giving us colour combinations and ways to use colours. So I think that would be my just a little thing to say, absolutely use all colours from nature in interiors. It doesn’t just have to be blues and green. So that’s my little, professional kind of little bit on there. So, yeah, so I think from a colour perspective, but absolutely, there are specific products which I think Tony could probably touch on more about. The specific products we have that help from a biophilic design with regards to kind of VOCs and improving air quality. I think, I think Tony is more the expert on the products than me.
Tony Westgarth
We are reducing the VOC, compounds, or the solvents for another name in which I in the products. So even water- based products will contain these. So we have got a narrow core range which are 98.9% VOC free. But we’re also looking at things which are air-cleaning qualities as well, which are reducing formaldehydes in some of our products as well. So that’s the sort of next generation where we’re going, and that’s where we’re looking at to be more biophilic.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Because that was actually…you’ve beaten me to my next question. Because, as designers, all of a sudden there’s a rash of things coming out, saying, buy paint that ‘cleans’ the air. And when we as designers look into this further, we find that, yes, it might clean the air, it might capture a very small percentage of carbon only during the period when it’s drying, and they’re water-based paints, so that doesn’t last very long. And then also, our own research has shown that they give off a terrible odor as some of these… some of these paints. So, is there kind of…are these all encompassed in the aspects that you’re looking at for creating these paints, as to whether or not it’s a carbon capture, whether or not there are smells involved, or how do you approach what cleaning the air actually means in a paint?
Tony Westgarth
Well, first of all, on the carbon capture, where we were reducing carbon in all of our products. So it’s, it’s, we don’t just do it in the capture. I haven’t come across any products which capture carbon which actually smell. Certainly the ones that we’ve got don’t. In fact, we’ve put on the kinds of the low o doubt, very low doubt, specifically for that. And not just when the actual product is being applied. This will, will actually stay in the leg of the product. So we’ve got products now which are reducing the formaldehydes in the air by reduce the formaldehyde in that room by about 80% so that’s not just why it’s been cleaned. That’s actually the formaldehydes in the room. But if, again, going back to earlier question with regards to cleaning if people are using cleaning products which are containing formaldehydes, that’s just going to increase the formaldehydes in the room. So it’s not just from a peer perspective, it’s from lots of different perspectives that we do need to reduce the VOCs and formaldehydes to make it a more that will more well being for everybody, really.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
So it’s the entire environment, not just the paints. Also, for example, in the UK, we have the highest fire-rating standards for foams which are toxic. So you know, and they in California, you’re not allowed to sell them. So it just also will depend on where in the world you actually are. Which leads me to my last question, which is, what do each of you think will be, or actually should be, the next development in paints for care or dementia, or even just for people as they age, regardless of where they happen to live. Could each of you take that in turn to answer? Let’s start with you, Tony, what do you think should be the next development.
Tony Westgarth
I touched on it earlier. Really, we are looking at improving air quality, and that is the main thing that we’re looking at reducing all solvents in the products using ones that will reduce the formaldehydes…to just basically give a greater well-being for the people who are using those spaces, really, and the people who are applying the products as well. So it’s not, it’s not just the people who are using the product space, but actually who are applying the products. We want to make sure that their health and safety is good as well. So that’s where we’re looking at, the sustainable. It’s down the sustainable route that we’re the company sort of focusing on.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
It’s s good point about the people actually working in the environment as well, whether it’s staff or the people actually applying the paint. What about you Dawn what would you say should be or you’d like to see as the next development in this area?
Dawn Scott
I think for me, I would like to see more research on designing for neurodiversity and making spaces more fully inclusive. I think we know quite a lot about designing for dementia, but I think designing for neurodiversity is a relatively new set of stipulations that we should all be looking at and adhering to. Because I think there, you know, we know that there’s at least 20% of the population that are neuro- divergent, and obviously under neurodiversity comes things like neurodegenerative which is dementia, Parkinson’s, etc. So I think as a holistic way, I think there should be a lot more research and design understanding done for those that, because that then creates spaces for everybody. And the more kind of holistic we can design, the better. I think. So for me, that would be a key thing about enhancing those kind of sensory experiences of environments and then personalizing kind of colour solutions as well. I think that that would be a really good thing. I mean, if we went really, really far into the future, being able to kind of program your walls to be certain colors so that they’re very relevant to you. It’s very space age. But let’s deal with understanding neurodiversity and making spaces inclusive for everybody. To start off with, I think is my thing.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
The very background meaning of inclusive design, yeah, the actual meaning and base of that. Thank you so much. Tony Westgarth and Dawn Scott for being part of the podcast and for adding so much to the dialog in this area. Thank you… You’ll find links to AkzoNobel, including colour palette downloads, information on where you can get your own LRV meter, and even my TED talk on the podcast page for this episode at www Third Age Dot Design. In our ‘Innovation Spotlight’, we’re highlighting a new product out of Japan which won the 2024 Good Design Gold Award, and was forwarded to us by a listener. It’s called Switle Body. Now if you’re going to look this up, I suggest you go through our website and not the internet, because there is a system called Switle, which is a kind of carpet cleaner. You can tell by the name that Switle Body is something altogether different, or is it? if you think about a wet carpet cleaner, it dispenses a cleaning product in water and then vacuums it up. Well, Switle Body does this on skin, allowing a staff or loved one to clean someone who’s bedridden in a more effective way than a simple sponge bath and without getting the bed linen wet. Plus, it only uses about one liter of water…that’s about 35 ounces for our US listeners…to pre-wash, bathe and rinse. You’ll find links on our website. And this product is brand new and not yet in very many countries, but we wanted you to hear about it here. First, I’m going to leave you with a question. With the prevalence of wet room showers, do you see a product like this negating the need for designing and building assisted bathrooms? Personally, I don’t, but we’d be interested in your thoughts. So contact us through the website and let us know what you think. From our tad international events calendar, here are a few highlights for 2025. March 14th to the 16th, will find the Global Conference on Age and Gerontology in Berlin, Germany. London, England, or to be more precise, the Royal College of Physicians in London, will host the European Healthcare Design Conference from June 9 to the 11th. And if you’re a forward planner who likes Disneyland, have a look at the ICAA Conference and Expo in Anaheim, California, from October the 13th to the 15th. ICAA, standing for International Council on Active Aging. As always, you’ll find more information and additional events on the International Events page of our website at www Third Age Dot Design. Thank you to today’s special guests, Dawn Scott and Tony Westgarth of AkzoNobel. To our sponsors, Wissner-Bosserhoff. Elevate nursing care with intelligent beds from Wissner-Bosserhoff, blending modern, smart care technology with comfort and empowering caregivers worldwide. To our editor and producer Mike Scales to Valerie Adler of The Right Website to Peter Thorne, who composed our theme music and is playing the piano with Mary Blanchard on flute. And to you for listening. I’m Lori Pinkerton Rolet, and next month, I’ll be speaking with the Editor of the Journal of Biophilic Design, Dr Vanessa champion. I do hope you’ll join us.