You can listen to Episode S4E12 right here!
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Hello, and welcome to the Third Age Design podcast – sharing essential information on senior environments. I’m Lori Pinkerton Rolet, and this month we have our year end special. And it certainly is that, in fact, we’re foregoing our normal format, which includes the innovation spotlight and the events calendar, so that we can fit in the entire interview that we have today with Eloy van Hal, one of the founders of Hogeweyk village in the Netherlands. Now, like me, you’ve undoubtedly been hearing about this game changing facility since it opened back in 2009, but did you know that the supermarket is the organizational hub for the entire nursing home? We’ll be sharing many aspects of this community, which we’re going to really find surprising, and after 15 years of running the model, what do they approach differently now? And more importantly, why?
And speaking of change, it was no less than Albert Einstein, who said the measure of intelligence is the ability to change, and that’s why our podcast even exists, to give busy people like you information which helps you to think in a much broader way about the design of senior environments to facilitate positive change. In other words, and as part of that, we give you something called a TAD Extra, Third Age Design, TAD – get it? If you hit the free Join Us button on our website, you’re going to get this automatically around four times a year as a thank you to our community members. The Third Age Design podcast is supported by visner bosserhoff, elevate nursing care with intelligent beds. From visner bosserhof, blending modern, smart day technology with comfort, empowering caregivers worldwide. Discover more at www wi-bo.com
Okay, let’s get started. So back on a European summer’s day, the podcast team headed for the Netherlands for an exclusive interview with Eloy van Hal, one of the original founders of the Hogeweyk village, a model based on what they refer to as worthwhile living. And I really love that phrase. Before our interview, we had an extensive tour of the village. And even though I thought I knew what to expect, because I’ve read a lot about this over the years, and in fact, did additional research, as you might expect, I was completely surprised in so many ways. As Eloy says, it’s a mind-blowing experience for people to take in and he is entirely right. When they opened in 2009 it was designed to accommodate 152 residents. It’s now home to 188 late stage dementia residents and literally hundreds of staff members. They were originally famous for the seven themes of living style options, and for an unusual amount of resident freedom in a dementia specific setting, there are pavements to be negotiated, large central public fountain and actual shops, rather than that internal run of rooms with joinery that look like a fake street Scene. It’s an actual street scene, because it’s an actual street. And you may recall that the Third Age design podcast covered le Village Landais in France earlier this year. Well, this was their inspiration, and le Village and other operators have been using the Be Advice and educational programs now offered at Hogeweyk to inform their own developments in ways which are culturally sensitive to their own countries. So let’s start with the big question, What is the vision of this entire complex?
Eloy van Hal
So the vision already for 30 years, and that’s the strength of the whole concept is the same. And the vision is a normal life for people living with advanced dementia in lifestyle simple so, and I always advise also visitors and people, we advise to ask questions. Why do you do this? If it’s not normal, you should not do it. Is it doesn’t it feel normal? Do you have this at home? No, why should you do it here? What are the reasons you do it here? And so then you can get rid of a lot of institutional aspects. Do you have handrails everywhere in your house? No, why should you design them here? Do you have vinyl floors everywhere? No, why should you have them here? Because people with dementia, of course, they have often also visibility problems, cognitive problems, but in essence, they are human beings who have lived already for 60…70…80 years, and they know a lot, they learned a lot. They still have a lot of abilities. So we should focus on the abilities and take into account that everybody is different. So it’s not a demented person, and so he will respond and react completely the same to an environment, no. So you cannot design the perfect place for all people with dementia. So design for the majority and adjust where it doesn’t work for that individual. And that’s why we have so many boring places. We try to make the best place where nothing can happen and nobody is agitated. But in fact, it works out exactly the wrong way. Then they get medicated, and then we want to add technology so people cannot go outside. So we need special “day” lights. We need special computers where you can bike instead of going outside. And I’m not against technology. Technology is part of the solution and the problems we face nowadays with a shortage of staff and so, so we should use technology. We should embrace AI that can help us a lot, but it starts with normalcy. A normal day, well lived for a person living with dementia.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
And you have different themes, but they’ve changed from when you opened and how did you decide originally what they would be? Not that we need to spend a lot of time on that. I’m more interested in how they changed and why.
Eloy van Hal
So when we started with the ideas of working with what we call lifestyles. So we see that there are different people living in the Netherlands, and that when you move to a nursing home, you still want to be seen as an individual and not a person, a demented person only. So if you live in a group of people, because that’s also something. If you live in a group, it’s more beneficial to live in a group with like-minded people with the same preferences, norms, values, music preferences, meal preferences, daily rhythm that gives more comforts and maybe less agitation and stress. If you listen to classic music all day long, and you do not like it, that is already stressful for everybody, and with a healthy brain, you just can ask friendly to put on other music. With an ineffective brain, maybe it’s more difficult. When we started, 30 years ago, working with lifestyles, we just looked at our population. It was not scientific research. There was no research. Later, we met a firm that has a huge database of all lifestyles and consumer behavior in the Netherlands by that at that time, it was just common sense, and a lot what you see today at Hogeweyk started with common sense. What do you want? Who are you? What are your life preferences? And so we started with seven lifestyles in the beginning, but when we opened the Hogeweyk, and I always say, last thing I did as a manager in 2015 was offering only four lifestyles instead of seven, because we saw the there was not enough variety difference between the different lifestyles, handicraft, Christian and traditional were sort of the same. It’s still sort of an overall. You generalize always a little bit, and you must always take into account that every person is different. So what is the difference between handicraft and traditional? When do you meet the criteria to live in handicraft and traditional? It’s not sharp. You are an individual with all kind of preferences, and you match, and we can meet the expectations in the Netherlands. So you match perfectly in traditional then, or maybe urban, formal or cosmopolitan, that’s enough. That’s what we saw.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Right. Okay. And within those groups, I know you mentioned that you try to match people up with the lifestyle that most closely adapts to them. Do the other people that are living in that house already, and living in a family style where they’re cooking together and eating together and doing laundry, whatever do they have to buy in and accept the person? Are they introduced ahead of time to say this person is potentially going to live here in order to suss that out? Or does that create more problems than it would solve?
Eloy van Hal
It’s not like a student house where you ballotage commission or something like that. No, so, so no, they do not have a say in that. We look at lifestyle. We have an empty room, an empty bed and an institutional theorem we try to match. We look at also the. The people that live there their character already, and then it’s up to the family and the organization to decide who will move in. And sometimes, of course, that gives problems, because it’s a new person coming in a group with six people, and sometimes it’s he or she’s welcomed as a new part of the family, which is, it’s not a family, but as seven people living together, yeah, and people respond in very different ways.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
And then, because you had, and this was something we discussed on the walk around, because you have only four different lifestyle groups that are duplicated. If somebody didn’t really fit in with that group, there are alternatives that might still appeal to them.
Eloy van Hal
Yes, we not have only four. We have four lifestyle homes, many lifestyles, many homes, do not choice. It’s all about choice. So it’s about offering choice. You have to move to a nursing home. This nursing home have many group homes, 27 for seven people, and you can choose what kind of lifestyle, what kind of person am I? Where do I feel more comfortable or less stressed? That’s the choice we offer at the first place. And then we also look at the people that live there already their character, and is it a match or not? So we offer choice, and many nursing homes do not even offer the choice. I said. We have a group home, and this is the empty spot, and that’s Yeah, and so that’s, in my opinion, with our experience, a missed opportunity. I like group homes a lot. For many people, it’s a social way of living together. But with lifestyle, you add an additional level where you match people better than without lifestyles.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
And can people when they’re moving into one of these lifestyle groups. Can they bring their own furniture?
Eloy van Hal
They can bring whatever is important for them, including pets, if it’s still important for them, and most of that furniture and decoration is in their own personal room, because we have to guarantee that the room, the living room is is well decorated always. So if one family member want to bring the couch and that person passes away, we still need the couch for the others and the chair and so in the decoration. So the living room is decorated by the Hogeweyk and the personal rooms are decorated by family and the residents, right? So you see very empty rooms and very full rooms with television, Swarovski crystal and everything. So it really varies.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
And we were talking earlier, again on our walk around, about inside, outside, and this whole idea of safety, which is kind of tends to be the top tier decision making vehicle for care home design in most places in the world, you take such a different approach. I think your phrase is worthwhile living, as opposed to, you know, we’re going to cosset you, envelop you in safety. Can you speak to that a little bit in terms of what risks are acceptable or not acceptable, or is that not even the question?
Eloy van Hal
I think we have to redefine risks and the term risk and safe it because what is a risk? What is the risk you have when you live at home, when you walk on the street in Amsterdam, we have we all take daily, our normal daily life risks, and people living with dementia should take the same risks if we try to keep people safe so Nothing can happen. You do not live, I think, and you take away all the normal aspects of normal life, that’s one and we have to redefine safety. Is it safer to sit on your butt all day, not using your muscles, your brain, being depressed because you’re locked in, or is it safer to just train your muscles, walk around, enjoy nature, other people. So what is more safe or less safe? What’s more healthy or less healthy? And I think we should redefine that and also accept, we should always accept that if you live, there are risks of dying as well, or that something happen. And it’s so strange that we, all, society, care providers, family, expect, or maybe require, that nothing can happen. Yes, when you. In a nursing home. That’s so strange. You should promise that something will happen, because then you live
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Right, but if something happens in a lot of countries, then people will be sued, because that’s
Eloy van Hal
yes, especially in and it’s upcoming in the Netherlands as well. But we family members should, should really change that, or you, and you are very good in signing waivers, and you should really upfront manage the expectations. So I’m looking for care providers who say, okay, sign this paper and we promise that something will happen and not sue us, because this is what we do. And if you do not like it, please do not come and everybody, many people looked especially a long time ago, 20 years ago or 15 years ago, when we developed the Hogeweyk as a very unsafe environment with so much outdoor space, fountains, poisoning, plants, ponds, pavement that is just normal, pavement with and not completely flat, different colors. Everybody expected that people with dementia cannot handle that, but people with dementia are not stupid, and if they live in a recognizable, normal living environment, they know how to use it. What is unsafe are wards, inside places where you are locked in, where you are not allowed to walk, to use your muscles, to train your brain, etc. That is unsafe. So in that way, we should redefine safety and the risks of normal daily life and dying, and you have to die somewhere, somehow. And Dementia is a deadly disease, and we should realize that everybody dies also in the Hogeweyk. Everybody dies here. So you should discuss, how do you want to die a fixed in a chair without any… depressed… or do you want to maybe die? Nobody dies here because we have a fountain or treat pavement. Maybe people die because they fell. And yes, a broken hip can be deadly, so but accept that, and before you die, enjoy life. (Lori: It’s a how do you want to live?) How do you want to live, instead of trying to manage all the possible daily life risks,
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
and you mentioned about the various gardens and outside spaces. How important to this model is the ability and the changes in outdoor space in terms of people being able to orient themselves and different gardens, and not just a central core, which is what we find world over in most care situations.
Eloy van Hal
And of course, this is also one of my problems. A nice central garden is nicer than no garden at all. But many people, most people, want to explore, and able to walk around. And so you need a variety to be nudged to go somewhere else. You need to variety the landmarks to navigate. And surprisingly, we know now that people with advanced dementia learn to navigate in this brand new neighborhood. For them, it’s brand new, but the view from every street corner standpoint, garden and some decoration that makes that people with dementia learn to navigate and learn to explore again, and some will do that very mindful or and others more natural.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
And there’s only one way in and out of the complex. And my understanding is that, by law, how that is managed may be changing in the Netherlands in the near future.
Eloy van Hal
So when we designed the Hogeweyk, it was mind blowing that we gave so much outdoor space in a sort of a safe or secured neighborhood, that outdoor space was mind blowing, but it was required to have a lock on the whole neighborhood, sort of and luckily, and I’m very happy with the new law in the Netherlands that we cannot lock in people and people living with dementia against their will. So we should rethink how… also safety again, but also rethink how we offer people the best support. And for some people, it’s really interesting to explore what’s happening outside the Hoke wake so the main entrance there are more exits, but the main entrance will be opened for everybody, so residents can go outside and some maybe with some support or technology. But the principle will be that everybody who wants to leave can leave, and I expect that maybe two or three residents want to explore on their own what’s happening outside, out of 188, so I do not expect that everybody will run away. No, they like the environment. That should be the goal: create a nice neighborhood. But for those who want to explore on their own, what’s happening behind those doors, we should support them in many ways, and many people, many residents already leave the Hogeweyk, like weekly or daily. And some go and play tennis, for example, go on a bike tour, like you saw today, walking. But then they can go on their own if they want to,
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Which is a very, very different setup, because it goes again against this safety thing, where we need to know where everybody is at every moment, we have to have a care worker that can visually see them at every moment. And of course, a lot of people in that situation end up standing next to the elevators because they want to get out here, which less likely to do that because they can.
Eloy van Hal
But look where we keep people with a brain issue, you want to get out as well. And if you create a good environment, then there’s not a reason to want to get out of that place. For most. And we all – stakeholders, society, the neighbors, the care workers, family – everybody needs to learn how to go along with this. That’s the next step in giving more freedom and a more normal life for all those people living with advanced dementia were now locked in. So I believe we can. Many people thought the Hogeweyk and the outdoor space, freedom was impossible. It proves that it works, that people with dementia can do so much more than we ever expected. And also you, while we walked around, you were looking for that advanced person with dementia. And you, you mentioned people were chatting and talking and smiling, and that’s, that’s, for me, that’s already the normal reality. But for some visitors, they do not think that people with advanced dementia can do that now it’s the next step, even more freedom, also outside the more safe, secured environment. And I believe that some people benefit from a more safe or environment they understand or they can navigate through, but not locked in or locked up.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Do you think that when the front door is no longer locked and it’s, you know, 24/7, it’s open, that you as a group will need will speak to the neighbors in the surrounding area and have, or invite them in in order to have an interaction, so that they understand what may be happening, so that you don’t get any pushback.
Eloy van Hal
You now assume that everybody’s afraid. So and many people are afraid, and some not. But there’s a lot of attention already, luckily, in society, in the news, in the media, about this new rule. That doesn’t mean that everybody knows about it, especially not if you’re nothing to do with dementia care or nursing home care. But the government requires everybody must be prepared. So you need a lot of education, training, explanation, because everybody, many people, not everybody, has a lot of concerns family as well. So I spoke with a family member when I was walking on the boulevards, I cannot wait until that door is opened. And she said, No, that’s the reason why my mom lives here. She has a lot of freedom within the safety of the neighborhoods. I said, No, okay, so we have some work to do. And right, maybe not convincing, but explaining that we cannot just lock in people and maybe her mother would not walk away or outside. Why should
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
But you will be doing an engagement?
Eloy van Hal
Yes, of course, that already started and not I will do that. The manager of the Hogeweyk now, because I’m not the manager anymore, but I support her a lot.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
I want to get into some lessons learned and about the speaking of lessons, some of the courses and things that happen and the be advice, etc. Before I get there, can you just discuss the importance of the shop and how that works with the residents in terms of day to day life here?
Eloy van Hal
Okay, yes, so in our conversations, we discuss a lot of misconceptions or misunderstandings about the whole Hogeweyk concept and approach, and when there’s a misunderstanding, and most of the time, the answer is, what is normal in the Netherlands, and that’s the answer. So we want to offer a normal neighborhood. We are officially a nursing home, so it’s not really completely normal, but when you walk around, there are people living here in houses. They need a meal. They need to clean their house. The people that live in the houses need a lot of support. They are residents living with advanced dementia. They need complex care. That’s why there are care workers here. But the care workers need groceries to prepare the meals. So what is more normal than going to the shop and invite residents to join if they want, and buy the groceries in the supermarket? So the supermarket is not more or less than a normal, regular supermarket. That’s how it works. So you pay if you want to buy something, a household doesn’t pay with cash money, because they are part of the whole organization, but everybody else, residents, family, staff members, if they want to buy something for themselves, they just pay. The supermarket delivers, is the place where you get, let’s say, 90% of everything, what you need to manage your household, food, cleaning materials, detergent for your washing machine, nice a new pan, fork. It’s all fruit, bread. It’s all available in the shop. And so it works like a normal supermarket in the neighborhood. And by having a supermarket, it attracts people. People move to the supermarket market. Other people can see people walking to the supermarket. So it really adds to a very lively community. From organizational view, I always say this supermarket works as the logistic hub for the whole nursing home organization. That’s the storage. It’s the place where everything comes together and all the procurement is done there. So it is a supermarket. It works like a supermarket, but at the same time, it’s also the logistic hub and the storage place.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Have you made significant changes? Do you think since it opened, that you’ve learned from experience other than, say, changing seven household models to four. Are there other specific lessons learned that you sort of wish you’d known before, but you had to find out from experience.
Eloy van Hal
I always say that when we developed this, that I was a coward. When we designed the restaurant, because we have also restaurant. It’s a public restaurant. So the neighbors, very nice. The neighbors, neighbors, so not everybody, all international visitors can come to the restaurant on their own. If you are a professional, you meet, you have to make an appointment. So that’s a warning. But for all neighbors, yes. Otherwise, we have all kind of busses with professionals who want to experience the Hogeweyk and then we are touristic attractions, so you need to have make an appointment. If you’re a professional, I want to visit the Hogeweyk, but everybody else can visit the restaurant, because it works like a public restaurant has a permit. So it’s a restaurant for residents, for families, but also for the neighbors, for the firms around us, for the people that live in the town. To enter the restaurant, you need to take the main entrance first. Next time I would design, I will design the restaurant with a separate entrance visible from outside the Hogeweyk, the whole Hogeweyk will be even more open and not that locked main entrance anymore. So also the restaurant, I maybe was afraid, can a waiter manage the restaurant and their guests and also keep an eye on residents who are walking around and maybe also walk in to your restaurant. Now I know they can. Now I know that all residents are not running away. No, they like the Hogeweyk, so an additional entrance is not a problem. So that’s one of the things we offer group homes in the Hogeweyk. And group home, a social way of living together, works very well for many people, and so you meet other people, you have family style dining you have a shared rhythm of the day. You can socialize. And if you interview residents, and residents told me that they prefer, often the living room above their own private room, because in the living room there are other people. So most people are social human beings who like other people around them, but not everybody. So in new projects, I always advise group homes, but also other housing options, like an individual apartment, or many individual apartments, really, apartment, tiny apartments with a kitchen, bedroom, washing machine, outlet, etc, and that may be combined with some other so you have your own apartment in a neighborhood with all kind of services available, right? So it’s a sort of safe, but my definition of safe, neighborhoods with services where you feel comfortable and you can live in your own apartment, maybe with your spouse as well. That’s not possible here unless your spouse has dementia but that’s because the Hogeweyk is officially a nursing home, licensed as a nursing home, and all the care and support is funded out of their care system. Next time other housing options, you get a different dynamic. Also maybe housing for other groups, students, families, maybe even adult day center, children day center, maybe school as normal as possible. That is the goal. What I liked about Village Landais were the 10 a little apartment, sort of hotel rooms for everybody, for family who was visiting from far, researchers. And also we stayed there when we stayed in Village Landais.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Which we we did on a on a podcast episode as well, which they very clearly said was inspired by the work that had been done here, but I understand you work in other areas. You’ve helped people, really all around the world to develop their own facilities that work for their cultures. Can you and you do this via courses, via Be Advice, can you explain how people can interact with you to get the advice and experience that you have to offer?
Eloy van Hal
Thank you for asking. We are sitting, by the way, in our be advice office in the Hogeweyk. So Be Advice simply explains the advisory department of the Hogeweyk and I’m one of the founders of the Hogeweyk, so you get first hand experience. We still realize and see that it’s very important to experience the Hogeweyk. So the Hogeweyk is still sort of our showcase. So you have to experience and see how residents use the environment, the Hogeweyk, the outer space, how people with dementia still able to do that. That is often mind blowing, still, and so I cannot explain it via this podcast, no or not online. During COVID, we try to do a lot of online. So it starts with a study program. And we nowadays say we you need at least a day. We have a short program of three hours, but that’s too short. Most of the time you need a day, or maybe a few days, to first experience, to walk around, get the right explanation of the founders, how it works, and then discuss the concept, the integral concept, but also discuss how you can apply this in your country, in your society, in your company, because we encourage not to copy, but to learn from this experience and take what you can to your country. It is a culture change. It’s a real transformation in healthcare, what we offer and what we show, and this change is difficult. Change is difficult for people, so I cannot force you to change or to change your organization. That’s why it should be the CEO, the manager, the care worker on site, who believes in their own concept. Otherwise you will not succeed. That’s our experience. So we offer study days where you gain a lot of information, and then we can help you to operationalize it in your situation. So we can help you with our experience from the Hogeweyk, but also the all the other new initiatives. We support it because it looks so simple, and it’s about normal life, but applying normalcy in our very, very institutionalized organizations, societies thinking that is the big problem, or the goal, or the the opportunity, and that’s the change of the Hogeweyk as well. So we help, and it can be from A to Z what we do with a project in Japan, we can help in the design, we can help in the training of the staff, because you have to work in a completely different way, with a different mindset. Or we can talk with the government. So we can help in many, many ways to make your project a success.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
And we will have links on the podcast page for this episode so that if you want to follow through, make contact, find out more about this, you’re you’re able to do this. One thing you mentioned is that you would like, perhaps in the future, to have spouses, to have families, to have schools to expand the model is so would that include, for example, earlier stages of dementia, rather than just late stage, which is what is offered here, and what other aspects of how it’s been done before? Are you really..would you be excited to break down…
Eloy van Hal
Deep in my heart, I do not want to build new neighborhoods or dementia villages. We are framed as dementia villages. I think we should work – and that’s where we are going towards to a society – where we maybe have safer neighborhoods, where all kind of people live, where people with dementia are part of and where you are supported by your neighbors, and maybe by a care organization that delivers care in your house, or maybe by a group home where more people with, in this case, dementia live, and what we learned and also our Be Advice Paradigm, our more general model with Seven Pillars, shows that it’s not specifically what we do for people with dementia, but for everybody. So the thinking can be applied for everybody. And the model works also for all kind of people in the earlier stages and our villages already in the earlier stages. In Rome, it’s for people with Alzheimer and the earlier stage, for example, works fantastic, but it’s more about how we think and how we look at people and people living with dementia, and then people and people with dementia want a favor, a nice environment to live in, a recognizable environment. Want to be seen as an individual, as a person with their own lifestyle. Want to have the right support, formal care workers or informal family, friends, neighbors. So I want to enjoy life. What does that mean for every individual? That varies. So all those elements are more, are part of your life. My life and a life should be a part of a life of people living with dementia. So I hope that in the further future, we have maybe still neighborhoods specifically built for some people who need more support, but you’re still complete part of society where you live together with other people, young and old, because that’s also part of normal life. Maybe we need specific places for some people who otherwise cannot function well. So maybe in that way, a neighborhood or a dementia village is a solution, but it should be as normal as open, as connected as possible. And that varies in some countries. Maybe this idea is easier possible than in other countries, culturally….
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
People don’t like to see things that they’re afraid of. And we you were mentioning this, you know, before that, I was making an assumption that people outside would be afraid, yes, but that ties into something that you said earlier, which is, you know, people need to come here to have the experience. I can tell the listeners my experience, and perhaps my biggest takeaway from our tour and discussions with you today is the one word would be content. I see contentment, a sense of calm and contentment amongst the people that are living here that I have never seen before in a dementia facility of any kind. I have this disease in my own family. My colleague Valerie Adler has had it in her family. And the thing that is most upsetting for the people living there, but also for the people that love them, is the lack of contentment in those facilities, which I don’t see here. I met some people briefly who were clearly at late stage dementia. But one lady cried because she was so happy. I’ve never seen that before. What is my final question is, what aspect of what you’ve done and built and continue to evolve and explore? Here, are you proudest of?
Eloy van Hal
That’s a difficult question.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
It’s my job.
Eloy van Hal
What I know now, after 15 years opening, I’m most proud of I think that we here all together, and I mean Vivium as a care group, the care workers, the home supporters, everybody works here, and they do not realize always, and my colleagues and Jeanette and we founders that we really were able, with the help of the media and you, and not everything, what’s written in the media is correct, but that we really were able to start a movement of change in the world where we look, where some people, or people that are interested look in a completely different way to the abilities eople with dementia, living with dementia have and so we now dare to talk about a movement of change, where we try, and it takes another two decades, get rid of the locked wards, places where nobody feels happy, where we think that is good care. So I think that we really were able to start that movement and inspire the people that do all the best. So many, many people work in care, and they do the best, but we we opened eyes there, where you can see the people with dementia can do so much more. And part of the whole Hogeweyk approach is also the innovation, maybe in the Netherlands, where we must talk more about life, but also about dying. And how do you want to die? Because all people in the Hogeweyk die, and they get very good clinical care. But also in the Hogeweyk in the Netherlands, we can learn from that, I think in the world that sometimes we we medicate too much, we provide too much care, clinical care, while life and taking the normal daily risks of life are much more healthier and and better. And maybe you die quicker. I don’t think so. But maybe you die. You have to die of something, and that dementia is a deadly disease. So enjoy life to the max and then die with comfort as well.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
You got to live before you die, yes,
Eloy van Hal
yes, but also accept it. And it’s very difficult for many people, and I really understand, but we all die, so talk about that more than only in the last phase, when nothing else can be done.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Eloy, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It’s been very, very inspirational. I’ve cried more than once since I’ve been here for good reasons, for happy reasons, where I was just so touched by what I’ve seen around me. Thank you so much.
Eloy van Hal
Thank you,
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
and you’re welcome. And as I mentioned earlier, you’ll find information on Be Advice and the courses offered at Hogeweyk village on the podcast page for this episode at thirdage.design. We hope you’ve enjoyed our discussion today on Hogeweyk Village, 15 years on, and there will be a follow up in the next TAD Extra. So please hit join us on our website for this additional and always free information. Thank you to my special guest, Eloy von Hall, and of course, to our partners, visner bosserhof, elevate nursing care with intelligent beds, from visner bosserhoff blending modern day, smart care technology with comfort, empowering caregivers worldwide, thanks to our editor, Mike scales, to Valerie Adler of the Right Website, to Peter Thorne, who composed our theme music and is playing the piano with Mary Blanchard on flute and thank you for listening. Next month, we kick off 2025 with a world of color, when I’ll be speaking with experts from one of the world’s largest paint manufacturers about color and finishes for older eyes, as well as for dementia, and we’ll have our usual Innovation Spotlight feature and the international events calendar for the year 2025 I’m Lori Pinkerton Rolet, hoping you enjoy a peaceful end to 2024 and wishing you a fantastic year ahead.