S2E7 Transcript: The Evolution of Retirement & Care Design

Lori Pinkerton Rolet
Hello, and welcome to the Third Age Design podcast, sharing essential information on senior environments. I’m Lori Pinkerton- Rolet, and this month we’re returning to our regular format. I’ll be speaking with top care and retirement design guru, Melinda Avila-Torio of THW design in Atlanta. And our ‘Innovation Spotlight’ is actually about light. We’ll be looking at a technology out of Sweden, which can impact both residents and staff in a very positive way. So that’s the US and Sweden so far, and I’m recording in the United Kingdom. So just a friendly reminder, that Third Age Design, the website, the transcript, all of it, are transcribed into 12 languages in addition to English. Make sure your contacts are aware of this free-to-use international source to share information related to senior living environments at ThirdAge.Design.

Marcus Aurelius, you remember him, is quoted as saying, “The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject.” Well, obviously he should have just asked a woman! I’m kidding, obviously. But where do you gather your information on senior environments during a busy work week? We’re here to gather information from people who know a lot about the subject, and we consolidate it into short, informative monthly episodes, and our website full of useful information. I’m going to give you the website address once again, it’s www.Third Age. Design. And if you hit join, you will automatically receive our latest TAD extra, which is exclusive information issued every single quarter to community members. Really, it could not be easier. Our guest today is Melinda Avila-Torio. And Melinda is an educator, activist and public speaker recognised as one of the most prominent voices advocating for inclusive and ethical design for seniors. She’s an associate principal and senior interior designer of THW Design, one of the nation’s top senior living design firms. Melinda is CHID board certified, and that’s healthcare interior designer, through the American Academy of healthcare interior designers. Her extensive research in the physiological, psychological and ergonomic background for ageing, and how the physical environment can enhance the elderly and quality of life is really what she’s engaged with. Melinda, thank you so much for joining me.

Melinda Avila-Torio
Thank you, Lori for the invitation.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
So you’ve been involved in this area for a lot of years now. Why did you choose to focus personally on this area?

Melinda Avila-Torio
Well, my career started really in multi-discipline firm, and we did an assortment of projects. But when I hit that 10 year mark, I was still in the commercial world of interior design. And I had a very strong yearning to find my place. And that meant really tapping into the humanitarian side of what I felt was missing in my work every day. You know, we spent so much time working in office and collaborating, that that key component was not present in my career development. And I was really missing that. I had an opportunity through a previous colleague who introduced THW design to me and said, ‘I think this is worth looking into for you, and I think you need to take it into serious consideration’. So I thought, well, you know, I have nothing to lose.

I’m kind of at this intersection in my life that, you know, having the influence of a mom, a mother who worked in the health care industry as a retired registered nurse who spent the latter part of her career taking care of seniors in long term care. My mom had this very careful advice for her three daughters. So there’s four children, the youngest being a son, but for her daughters, she made it a point and I understand now that we should not consider going into the medical field or let alone become a nurse. And at that time, as I grew older, I can I came to an understanding that she felt very undervalued as a nurse. She felt like they were treated as glorified maids.

And we think about what we just recovered from with this pandemic or trying to recover as a world. We don’t take our frontline caregivers very seriously and you know, and that is probably humanity’s biggest mistake is taking the health care expertise and dedication for granted.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
So you found another way to engage with it.

Melinda Avila-Torio
I did, you know, and her kind of release was finding any kind of empty wall in the house and she’d break out her pens, her paints her paint brushes, and painted beautiful murals. Whether it was in the bathroom, the wall going up the stairs, or the kitchen, mom had a signature on the wall of, you know, beautiful flowers or mushrooms in the kitchen, etc. So…

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
So, you were inspired.

Melinda Avila-Torio
I was, you know, she had a dream as a young child in the Philippines, that she was going to make her way to the United States and her way was becoming a nurse who would one day have her house and white picket fence,

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
..and murals on the wall, apparently, yes. Obviously, the size of the projects you work on, some of them can be very, very large. And there can be a number of stakeholders involved with that. And when you’re starting any sort of a new project with the group and a lot of stakeholders, I think it’d be very helpful to our listeners, if you could talk about any specific ways you’ve found about bringing all the different stakeholders together during the development process. Because I think, whether you’re an owner or an operator, or an architect, or designer, I think we’d really value your input on that.

Melinda Avila-Torio
When we first meet a client, whether it’s for project prospect, or just getting to know, you know, one another, and you’re breaking the ice, one of the things I really listened to very carefully is how comfortable is that executive leadership group, with sharing their caregivers with us. And what I mean by that is, are they giving permission and creating a safe environment where a nurse is able to share her experience her desires, and her wants for change to happen, and be able to translate that and share that info with us, the designers who are trying to gather information. In prior years, probably 20, some plus years ago, I used to see that it was a very protective, or non existent activity. They did not share their care team with us…you’re only collecting what executive leadership was willing or felt appropriate to share with the design team as we were planning. So I think in recent years, when you could start to see this kind of guarding, of protecting have kind of come down, they realise that there’s true value and being able to have dialogue between us as designers and their director of nursing, their healthcare administrator, and even the nurses that have a voice. it’s important to understand the struggles and the desires that they want for change. And it’s all met, you know, and shared with good intention. But I think understanding also, you know, what works today, that works well, given the physical environment, you know, we want to know that what’s been successful, what could possibly be improved if the physical environment were enhanced? And then what are those programmes that they really feel would benefit everyone in the community if the space was provided? Right, you know, that usually means like adding major renovation and expansion. So I think allowing those questions to be asked of makes them feel like they’ve got ownership in the process. And that’s important. We’ve got to have it.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Presumably, in doing so, you also find out things that they had already tried that weren’t successful for them so that you’re not going down, you know, some sort of route on an idea that immediately they’re going to say ‘no’ to.

Melinda Avila-Torio
Exactly. You’re, you’re on point. Exactly.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
And presumably, it’s a bit like the rest of that staff are not going to be necessarily taking all the final decisions that will still go to management. But for the information gathering, as you’re speaking, I’m picturing it like…where you’re the hub, and you’re getting the feed in from everybody, the management, the staff, everyone else. And then coming back with your proposals accordingly. Is that…

Melinda Avila-Torio
Oh, yes. You know, and, you know, when I first started in this field, I used to notice that you know, at the table we didn’t see the director of facility operations, you kind of heard those issues that they were encountering with the building engineering, etc, through another senior leadership position. But you know, these days, we want the input, we want to find out from those directors, what’s been successful for finishes? What has been not so good? What should we stay away? What do you have a comfort level with that you’re getting great customer service? You know, so from each community, it’s different experiences. So we know like, for example, they want this particular carpet manufacturer, ‘oh, yeah, please do it.’ I know, you know, this community is like,’ I think we prefer to go with this’, you know, so we try to be respectful of that, definitely.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
So it’s all tailored. If I’m, if I’m going to go back for a second to what you were talking about your mother and the nursing and that kind of thing. So let’s say, we’ve got this overall brief that you’ve put together and this wheel sort of thing where you’re gathering all the information, how much thought ever goes into the staff accommodation, in terms of making them feel supported by the people that they’re working for, for self-esteem? Things that would really be supportive of the work that they’re doing. Because very often, these are not the highest paid members of society, and yet, it’s a very, very difficult job.

Melinda Avila-Torio
Right? It is. And, you know, I, I believe my first experience of seeing a client really embrace the need to accommodate their staff was with the Carmelite Sisters. And even though you don’t have the space of a room with the windows, or, you know, some of these larger spaces uninterrupted, that can accommodate large staff break time, it is typically done below, right? In a basement, or it’s a room without the window. But they made every point to try and create a space that had a, you know, large mural in there to at least provide stimulation, provide some positivity into a space. And then you think through all the amount of stress that they encounter from the time they come in that shift. And when they leave, what can we do to, to honour that and to help them decompress? And usually, in their early forms, or events of programming, the question of the care team wasn’t a priority, you know, we had to fight for that we would push that issue, we would even force it with the architects like, you need to go back to the client. And I know they need to cut square feet out of this programme. But we’ve got to provide a space, especially for memory care, right? That’s so it’s very challenging, and kudos for all the health care providers that have dedicated themselves for memory care support. The space there is critical, you know, the suicide rates among healthcare providers, across the board, no matter what the area of practice is high. So anything that we can do as interior designers, or architects and land planners, to force the conversation of, we got to keep the sanctity of square feet, for caregivers somewhere inside the building.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
…make them feel loved, make them feel appreciated. And also, I’m just wondering, the Carmelite sisters that you mentioned, was their staff retention any better than any other places, you know, in retrospect, whether or not there was an example that we can put forward as to ‘yeah, you know, we thought about this, and we’re glad we did.’

Melinda Avila-Torio
I think they are one of the… because they’re not for profit, right? The Catholics, organisation of Sisters, they provide the type of training and education that’s critical for their staff. It’s not like throwing a person into a care environment and not having adequate background training. And we’re seeing across the board that all of our client groups and even those that we don’t currently service, but they all have had that undercurrent theme of providing more training and more insight and mentoring for the caregivers out there. I’m not sure if I’m answering your, your …

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
No, I think you are. That’s, that’s quite specific. That’s quite specific to them. And therefore that’s not necessarily a model for across the board. Yeah, that’s, what I’m understanding. Going a little bit further. Looking at your website, the THW Design website. It’s obviously… they’re very, very elegant projects. I’m curious, from a US perspective in the US marketplace, is the general direction, which I can say is happening in the UK towards something that looks a bit like high end hospitality? Or do you find that it actually differs a little bit more than that between organisations that you’re working for? Or even does it diverge based on price point?

Melinda Avila-Torio
It’s all those think of it varies because we have clientele that may be offloading some of their higher brands, and they’re looking at middle market. That’s the biggest demand. And with all the research that’s going on, everyone’s preparing to do several things, you know, looking at current real estate out there that’s probably been abandoned, or a current companies trying to offload such as hotels with low occupancy, and they’re trying to look at ways to convert those into independent living. We do service communities that and we’re very grateful for this who focus on just being able to provide housing services for Medicaid, low income. We do have projects and we continue to do projects for public housing. So we do hit different ranges of product availability out there and offerings that hopefully can address a wide variety of income and housing needs. I think the current thread in there is how do you incorporate the third more important component, which is socialisation? You know, what do those spaces look like, you know, and really flattening that sense of inequity. Because you really want to be able to provide those spaces that speak to the heart of the residents there and who have obviously been able to share their knowledge and experience of life, you know, whether it’s here or abroad, but really stressing the key point of accessibility to home. And that’s key.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
And also not to be necessarily segregating people into current, yeah, different generational living, where the older people are somehow entirely separated from society. Are there any innovations that you’ve been involved with at THW for making spaces that are a little bit more interactive with other parts of society?

Melinda Avila-Torio
I think a lot of that starts with our land planning department. Jake Friend who’s the Director of our land planning studio has got to be one of the most talented land planners out there that I have seen and have had a privilege to work with. He has a way of being able to storytelling look at a piece of land or a site and envision all these components that are high priority issues for the clients and for the residents. And even the town nearby, you know, because being able to blend a campus, whether it’s a life plan community, or a freestanding building, if it’s a sister living from memory care, allowing that piece of component to be transparent, as far as where that property line is really defined. You know, and that kind of bleeds into the question of intergenerational opportunity. You know, he is able to look with the team and also inspire us as architects and designers to look at what are the opportunities of bringing both the outside community and the interior community to interact more fluidly more naturally, you know, we’re not for intergenerational opportunity, having to load up a couple of minivans and transport residents so far off site to engage in the community event. You know, how do we bring those events of soccer games close to the campus? Outdoor amphitheatres, you know looking at land outside where a school band can come and perform for outdoor brunch that the seniors of independent living assisted living and skilled nursing are gathered together. I think one of the beautiful parts of designing and addressing your question is looking at the comfort level of different operators who do not segregate memory care. Now, it’s taking that chance and making that hard commitment of caring for integrated populations of into you know, memory care and non-memory care. How do you bring that together? There’s Not this hard division of you know, that’s the winning down there for those with dementia and Alzheimer’s, unless you go past the double doors, that’s where they live.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Are you findingth at to be successful in the United States? Because I’ve, I’ve not come across that. I have come across that in some other countries. I’ve not come across that in the UK yet. Integrating, you do and on some of the smaller projects, sometimes you’ll get this integration. But in terms of a master plan, I have not seen that. Iss that kind of a getting to be more and more of a standard direction of travel in the EU in the US market?

Melinda Avila-Torio
I think it’s becoming a standard component of discussion. Because I think one of the more current trends is to open up more conversation about that, and introducing a client group to another client group who’s considering that but doesn’t know where to start. We’ve had the privilege to partner with Deerfield Episcopal Retirement Community, based in Ashville, North Carolina, and from day one, they have made a strong stance on providing care for integrated population of Medicare, both in their assisted living and their skilled nursing. And we had one national designer who came in as a consultant to challenge that they challenge that we didn’t ask them to but they felt in their heart of hearts that that was not an appropriate direction, because that just provided excessive stress for the caregivers, you know, how can you do that to the care provider to go from one and the other and,it’s too much, but they stood their course. And it has been a successful experience for them for more than 20 some years. Their motto is that if you as a potential resident decide to live at Deerfield, you’re also recognising your commitment to be one of those care providers and neighbours, who help us take care of those who, you know, experience stages of dementia or Alzheimer’s. And, you know, we do it together as a family.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
That must make it more comfortable, I’m imagining off the top of my head, for people looking for a place to put a loved one, where they will get the sort of support and stimulation that they need, that they perhaps cannot provide at home. I can see in some cases reticence of putting somebody in a high dependency dementia facility when perhaps the person they’re putting in isn’t, isn’t at that level. So they just kind of it gets put off, doesn’t it?

Melinda Avila-Torio
Right, right. You know, and they rely on technology to help them navigate where you’re integrating the population. You know, like, if somebody in assisted living memory care wants to go down to the Riverwalk, which is their wellness area, and experience that they’ll have a care provider go with them. But we they have the door hardware to help navigate so that there isn’t potential elopement. But they’re still able to engage with those folks, independent living or visitors coming in. Whether it’s a family with young children visiting grandma or grandpa or another older relative, they make it work. And that’s the key is getting a group in the community that are dedicated to what they want to have as an elevated experience and make it work.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
I think that’s a very inspirational thing for people to take away and consider their own projects. So whichever part of the sector they’re personally engaged with. I’ve got one sort of final broader question, Melinda, which is, with a crystal ball, what do you see as some of the possible future directions for design and senior living?

Melinda Avila-Torio
You know, through the pandemic experience, we noticed the data that was coming out looking at what was happening with COVID in both large settings, and then smaller ones, like the Green House Project, and it was very eye opening to see what the hard data was saying. But then it was also endearing to hear what the soft testimonials what were be, you know, what was being shared, etc. So I think, you know, there’s a lot of movement in buzzing going around with both state and local level here, both in Georgia, and other states across the US, and I’m sure it’s happening across the water there and other countries. But it’s the Green House Project. And looking at those smaller opportunities of creating home where you can have that caregiver who is, quote unquote, that universal caregiver who provides that impromptu and natural daily rhythm of cooking the meals that the resident, you know, a single resident or double or whoever wants a particular meal, and then allowing those settings to be more non intimidating for intergenerational. So it feels very familiar and organic with the younger residents and younger family members. So it’s looking at components that break down that fear of ageing, and having a better understanding of what that is. I love what I’m seeing with technology as it branches out for better ways of socialisation. There’s one company that I had the opportunity to attend at another conference recently was from Wellvesta. And it was very unique and how they kept sort of in a way the wants and desires and social patterns of residence. And then a resident who may be interested in a particular activity or there’s something about, you know, their profile, another resident could see and share. And it was just, I would encourage you to check that out, because I thought it was really encouraging to see that technology out there available for both the residents to be able to engage with and buy, and then allowing also the care team to make adjustments in their care plan. Throughout the day, if they notice something different, as far as a residents movement, or resonance engagement, you know, or a resonance, social activity, desire was shifting, how could they make that change in plan, so that they could bring back that resident into the fold of being more sociable.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
We’ll put a link to that on this podcast, on the website, and then all submit that might be something we can look into for the future for one of our ‘Innovation Spotlight.’

Melinda Avila-Torio
Now, it’d be great.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
I really want to thank you, you are a font of knowledge and experience. And I really think you’ve provided some very interesting areas of further consideration today. And I really, thank you very much.

Melinda Avila-Torio
I appreciate it Lori, it was a joy to speak with you. And I’m very grateful for this opportunity. Thank you.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
For Innovation Spotlight today, I’m speaking with Karl Emanulsson, who I met at his wonderful retreat, Wi 42. I’ll put a link on the website in case you want to look that up as well. It’s a wonderful experience. But Karl’s also going to tell us today about something that the Sunwell Group does, which can be used in care, retirement, all sorts of situations. And it involves the use of natural daylight but without harmful UV rays, which is really interesting. Thank you for joining me, Karl.

Karl Emanulsson
Thank you, Lori, and it’s, it’s a privilege to be able to talk about this wonderful innovation.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Yes. So you have this actually at the retreat. And my experience was that you could just sit in a lounge chair, relax, get the warmth of the sun, but we weren’t having to slather ourselves with all sorts of creams and things in order to say not get skin cancer. So can you go into what your background with the Sunwell Group is? And how you came about putting this in your own facility?

Karl Emanulsson
Yeah, no, it’s this dates back about 10 or 12 years ago. And I’ve always been really into radical well being all aspects of well being in fact, so your body, your mind, your soul, your spirit. And I’ve also always loved the sounds. So I read this newspaper article, and he was it was taken in a care home and it was it just looked it looked amazing. He looked at he had a tropical backdrop. He had beach lounges, and you saw the care home residents sitting there enjoying sipping tropical cocktails. They had hula hoops around their necks. Go ahead. And to me, it just looked. It looked it looks a little bit gimmicky. And then I saw another article with the Swedish Prime Minister was letting his hair down in one in one of these installations. And then there was another article with this Swedish King and I was like, wow, he’s usually quite reserved, but he was just lucky there and you saw the elderly people were having a really good time. So I was intrigued and, and I thought I got I got to experience this myself. So I said to my beautiful wife, I’m gonna go to Sweden, and this was in the middle of the winter. And I’m going to go and experience this Swedish indoor beach. And she’s usually quite supportive. So she said, All right, all right. Off you go to Sweden. To experience this.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
You’re Swedish nationality anyway. Yes?

Karl Emanulsson
Yes, that’s true. Yes, yes. So anyway, so I went over, I went over and I met the Swedish in inventor Ingomar. He’s a super clever guy thinking out of the box, and he’s made several innovations. I don’t know if you remember this movie back, back in the 80s. ‘Back to the Future’ you got that? So imagine this guy, you know, flowing here, and really inspiring. And an initially, he invented the sunlight technology for Volvo and Saab to test out cars and trucks. So instead of flying them out to the Arizona desert for three months to test different sun conditions, how we affected the cars, for example, they wanted to do this in-house. So cars, they have wind tunnels. Now they also have sun tunnels. So he invented this first and then he then he realised that you had a positive effect on the factory workers. And they used to tell him when he come to service the equipment that how marvellous, they felt like sitting in the sun. And then and then he got down to an idea that, wow, maybe there’s maybe there’s another aspect and how I can use this for wellbeing? And at the time, there was a lot of a lot of press about solariums and the negativity about too much UV etc. So he worked together with some Swedish universities and the authorities to make it 100% safe. So even called the weather station in Mauritius, because he wanted the exact same conditions that you have when you go on a tropical beach all day. So he, so he developed the sunlight. And over the next year or two, he invited 1000s of people around to come and give feedback and what he realised what it was not just about the sun, it was also about creating a really authentic environments or multi-sensory environments, a sand on the floor, tropical beach backdrops, where it feels and looks exactly like you’re on the beach. So you’re wrapped around with beautiful scenery, you’ve got the sound from the sea, you got the smells you got…

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
And you can have a fan blowing your hair if you if you want to have a bit of a bit of a sea breeze. And I also noticed Carl, that there are different settings so you can say you’re in Copacabana or you can say you’re in Miami, and you get a slightly different kind of colour sunlight experience from each of those. So in a in a care home setting for especially in countries where there’s not a lot of natural daylight, this sense of well-being that you can just kind of tap into at any point, especially, if perhaps you don’t go outside a lot, or you’re not particularly mobile must have phenomenal results.

Karl Emanulsson
Yeah, it’s, it’s profound. And especially in in care home settings where you have dementia patients, they found that not only is it is it beneficial for their mood, and it’s calm, and it actually protects you from cancers or so forth, because you get the vitamin D boost from the sun, but it also helps reduce anxiety and it’s an it’s massively helped them reduce the reliance on sort of calming medicines, and they’ve reduced the number of incidents with dementia patients and so forth. And also it brings a lot of joy and happiness. And care home residents, they actually create new memories of being in a beach holiday together.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
And it doesn’t take a big space. It can just be…the equipment itself isn’t enormous. You just need place for some lounge chairs. You can put a mural up on the wall or whatever it is you want. You wouldn’t even necessarily need to do that. But having that light and creating a mult as you said a multi-sensory experience could also benefit the staff on their staff breaks that sense of well being so after meeting you and having this experience personally, my company’s working on a project right now and we’ve put this forward for a staff room.

Karl Emanulsson
That is a wonderful idea. Actually one of the did some studies on the early installations in Sweden, where they actually proved that it helped reduce staff sick leave by 25%. So especially, you know, shift workers, they hardly get to see the sun. And I have so much respect for for care home staff because it can be a very chaotic and stressful environment to work in, and to be able to go on your coffee breaks, to be able to actually sit in a nice relaxing space and, you know, build relationships with the residents. It’s it can be so profound,

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Without giving, you know, exact financial figures. Is there a cost range that anybody listening to this because presumably, this equipment can be sent anywhere in the world? For you, so it has an international audience, which the podcast has. Can you give me a guideline on what the cost is so that people would know whether or not it’s would work for them potentially?

Karl Emanulsson
Sure. So the the sunlight unit by itself cost around 20,000 pounds, and they’re fully fitted multisensory, some room is around 30,000 pounds, and they can’t get everything and that’s, that’s for a space, which is usually around 16 square metres, where you can get four or five residents in…there will be a little space where you can have a beach bar, or maybe a couple of other chairs sitting outside of the sunlight as well.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Right. But also at that kind of cost point that could be a fundraising, a specific fundraising event to raise money for a particular purpose. Because…and then that gives the home or whatever environment it’s being used in an opportunity to market the fact that they have this technology.

Karl Emanulsson
Yes, no, there’s many examples of that, where, where there was one Care Home Group here in the UK, where they specifically got grants to instal five of these sunrooms from the local council to increase the well being of the both the staff and the and the residents. But actually what I really love about this is also because…I remember back in the day when when I was four or five years old, I went to visit my great grandma in a care home and I and I always used to dread going there because I was just left by myself and the adults were having a conversation. But I’ve what I’ve seen in these installations is actually becomes an event so grandchildren love actually love to come in into the care home because they can even bring their swimming trunks they can sit in the sand and build sand castles, play games, with their great grandparents and any any creates not only an opportunity to reminisce about past holidays together, but they can, they can actually create new memories together. So it’s so wonderful to see.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
What a wonderful idea, , I can see that that would be a big draw and a lot more fun than visiting with your grandparent in just a plain lounge that’s been designed for older people. It’s a bit of a game changer that. Thank you so much Karl, this is really really cutting edge exciting technology that I think could really help a lot of people.

Karl Emanulsson
Oh, thank you. Thank you Lori for inviting me.

Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Just time then for a quick look at the TAD events calendar. The National Investment Centre for Seniors Housing and Care or NIC will be having their fall conference from September 14 to the 16th at the Marriott in Washington, DC USA. And here’s one I’d really like to attend the Senior Living Innovation Forum in Nassau in the Bahamas, from the sixth to the eighth of November. And from the eighth to the 10th of November. The ICAA Conference, Leadership Conference and Expo 2022 is taking place at the Gaylord Palms Resort and Convention Centre in Orlando, Florida. I’m definitely going to that one. You’ll find out more about international shows and conferences on the events page at Third Age.Design. And please do drop us a note on the contact page if you have any information about something you’d like promote it. Thank you to our special guest Melinda Avila-Torio of THW, to Karl Emanuelsson for sharing the Sunwell Group with us to our extremely patient producer Mike Scales. To Valerie Adler of The Right Website. To Peter Thorne who composed our theme music and is playing the piano with Mary Blanchard on flute, and to you… thank you for being part of a community who believes we can improve senior environments together.

I’m Lori Pinkerton-Rolet and I hope you’ll join me for the next one.