You can listen to Episode S4E6 right here!
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Hello, and welcome to the Third Age Design podcast…as always, sharing essential information on senior environments. I’m Lori Pinkerton-Rolet. And you may have noticed as I have, that it’s become quite normal to hear AI mentioned at least somewhere every single day. But what does that actually mean? And what impact is it likely to have on senior living environments across the world? I promise we will all be learning a lot this month from my special guest, Dr. Chris Papadopoluos, recipient of the 2023 PROSE Award in the nursing and allied health category for transcultural, artificial and robotics in health and social care. So we’re in good hands. Is AI something we should embrace or approach with trepidation. Let’s see what you think by the end of the podcast. And in our Innovation Spotlight, I’m going to tell you about an inspirational UK based organisation using the power of music to make a difference in the lives of people living with dementia, and their carers. We’ll be providing links to music in mind to inspire this innovation in other locations. I love this quotation by Thomas Edison. Thomas Edison is someone that my actual grandfather George met when he was a young man and head of the local science club in Pennsylvania. Edison said: ” When you have exhausted all possibilities, remember this, you haven’t.” That’s why we all need to keep learning and exploring the possibilities of what can be done to improve senior living environments. The very reason this podcast exists. To provide the latest concepts and innovations from around the world. If you go to the website at Third Age Dot Design and hit the ‘Join Us’ button, you’ll also automatically receive A TAD Extra, which is exclusive information for our community members. The new one is just about to be sent out. It’s a deep dive into end of life spaces and the impact they have on patients and their family members. The Third Age Design podcast is supported by Wissner-Bosserhoff. Elevate nursing care with intelligent beds from Wissner-Bosserhoff, blending modern day smart care technology with comfort, empowering caregivers worldwide. Learn more@www.wi-bo.com That’s www.wi-bo.com. Okay, let’s get started on AI. My guest today is Dr. Chris Papadopoulos, Principal Lecturer in Health and Director of Health Research in the School of Society, Community and Health at the University of Bedfordshire in the United Kingdom. He also founded and leads the London Autism Group charity, he serves in several academic leadership roles both in the UK and internationally; and his CV, or resume for those of you in the US, runs to 15 pages! In 2023. He won a PROSE award in the nursing and allied health category for ‘Transcultural, Artificial and Robotics in Health and Social Care.’ And that’s our starting place for today’s discussion. Dr. Papadopoulos, welcome to the Third Age design podcast.
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
Oh, thanks for having me. It’s great to be here. Thank you, Lori.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Now, we met few months ago at the Future of Care Leaders Conference in London, in England. And you were speaking on AI, and particularly the likely future impact of robotics in care. And before we go into detail on that, can you just describe… really easy question to start with…can you just describe what the term AI refers to besides just the meanings of the word artificial intelligence? What does it mean? And how does it work?
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
Yeah, so AI, artificial intelligence is simply I think the most simple way of understanding it is basically computers, trying to perform tasks and trying to think in the same way as humans do, you know, so it’s trying to artificially mimic and adapt to and become at the same level of human intelligence. So it’s basically computer systems trying to operate intelligently in the same way that we might expect the human to operate.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
So, the technology thinks the technology reasons, the technology analyses, is that is that correct?
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
Yeah, that’s right. So the way that artificial intelligence works today is that it’s trained on lots and lots of data. And this data enables it to really understand the world that we live in, to make predictions, to see patterns, and a lot of it works on on what we call transformer technologies. So the idea of transformer technology, which is really the breakthrough in artificial intelligence was, you know, to sort of understand and be able to predict what word or what concept will follow the previous word in concept. I think I think the breakthrough of artificial intelligence was this paper that was published in 2017, called ‘Context is All You Need.’ And that really enabled artificial intelligence to understand human language, because before then, it was really struggling with human language, you know, I’ve tried to train AI systems previously. And the way that it used to work is that you would have to manually explain everything, you know, and it would be a lot like, you know, trying to pretend that certain sentences and languages were natural when it was all pre-programmed. Whereas with the emergence of transformer technology, it’s much more fluid, it’s much more able to predict what human language looks like, and how it’s understood. So it’s much more effective and very, very convincing. And if you think about it, human language is extremely complex, you know, it’s extremely, extremely complex. So this kind of breakthrough really opens up lots of lots of doors. I’d like to also say with regard to artificial intelligence, it’s also important to know, a couple of other terms. So there’s AI, which is sort of artificial intelligence as in the concept of computers, trying to mimic human intelligence. Then very importantly, there is something called AGI which is, which is called artificial general intelligence. And AGI is something that a lot of philosophers and computer scientists and social scientists are quite worried about. Because this this, what this means is that the artificial intelligence will become quite generalised and its ability so that we’ll be able to be intelligent enough to interact and cope with all sorts of tasks, you know, in ways that humans generally can. So its type of intelligence moves from being quite narrow, to quite broad and generalised. And at that point, it can become much more useful. But also, there’s more potential challenges and complexities. And then beyond that, there’s another term, which is important to be aware of called ASI or artificial super intelligence. That one sounds scary. Yeah, well, that’s the one I think we should probably be most probably the most, I’m hesitant, said worried about. But you know, the one that we should be planning ahead to the most, because essentially, this is, this is when the artificial intelligence is so intelligent, that it’s more intelligent than us in every way. Artificial general intelligence is at the point at which the intelligence is as good as us, which is still extraordinary. But ASI is when it’s, it’s beyond human intelligence in most things. So then, you know, then there are an enormous number of questions and concerns and issues that need to be considered what as to whether or not we want something like that, and what that would look like and how we’d pull it back if, if it got out of control and that sort of thing. Yeah.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Very interesting. I think we’re going to go on to a little bit of that later in, in our questions. But those are some new terms on may AGI and ASI. This award that you won- ‘Transcultural Artificial Robotocs, in Health and Social Care’ and you mentioned languages. So does this mean trans-cultural meaning international, as opposed to belonging to one country or one culture? Because that just speaking in English is difficult enough. But having an understanding, I’ve been learning Japanese and last few years, incredibly complicated. And that’s just one other language. So how broad does this go?
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
Yeah, so absolutely. So cross-cultural intelligence, is really an approach that I think is very important that we we’ve done quite a bit of work on particularly the ‘caresses’ study that was funded by the EU and Japanese government back in 2016 is a four year project. You can read about that if you wish to. But in this project, essentially, we we realised that if we want to get the best outcomes, both in terms of impact on health and well being but also in terms of acceptability and perceptions of safety and trust by users, probably what’s going to be useful and important is this notion of trans-cultural and cultural competence. And what that basically means is that the robots are culturally competent, and they are culturally sensitive. And what that means is many many things, really, and you know, language you mentioned is one thing. So absolutely the ability to adapt to different languages and AI can actually do this quite convincingly at the moment. So it can talk in very in different languages very effectively. But it’s not just about getting the language right, but it’s also about, you know, the nuance, you know, the colour within the language, I suppose, you know, the intonations and the pauses and the end the emphasis on certain words other than other words, that you’d only really know if you were really culturally competent, or you really understood that culture. But not even just the verbal aspects, but also the non-verbal aspects, you know, it’s really important. The basic example is it’s very important that a robot if it is to meet somebody who is Japanese, cultural descent and of heritage, that it that it perhaps bows upon an initial interaction, as opposed to raises its arm for a handshake, because that is not what you know, we’re typically not what you would expect a culturally competent person who understands and appreciates cultural nuance to do to apply their set of cultural expectations to another’s. So what you want to do is with trans- cultural competence is essentially make the user feel like it’s talking to someone who actually belongs to their cultural heritage. And that makes, that makes all the difference in terms of trust, as I said, and in terms of just general interaction.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
The interface between the two, the interface between the robotics and, and the human. What about humour? Is humour ever part of this? Or can it be?
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
Absolutely no, it absolutely is, you know, when you think about culture, there’s so many facets of culture right here, there’s humour is one part food, music, you know, art, sports, you know, you name it, you know, just any aspect of life is going to be culturally nuanced. Right? Because, you know, so absolutely, humour. I mean, one one that we focus quite a lot on in our caresses research project was was just general conversation or areas of interest. So for example, with Japanese culture, we would we would have programmed the robot to, to understand that if somebody identifies as Japanese that perhaps a reasonable starting point, if, if the conversation is going to be about sports, for example, is that the initial question might be, Oh, do you enjoy sumo wrestling? Or do you enjoy baseball, as opposed to do you enjoy cricket, because, of course, cricket is not something that is likely to be, you know, a sport of choice in in Japan. But very, very importantly, what makes a culturally competent person, and approach, isn’t just sticking with these broad stroke, sort of stereotypical assumptions of what somebody’s cultural profile is. So although you might start with the idea that perhaps a Japanese person enjoys baseball, and so you start with that conversation, perhaps the person, okay, the person who’s Japanese, but doesn’t like baseball, maybe maybe they’ve got an inherent interested interest in cricket. Right? So it’s really important that the system then adapts, you know, and it doesn’t just stay on these kinds of stereotypes. But this whole concept of making the systems culturally nuanced, culturally intelligent, is super important, and probably hasn’t had as much attention in the latest developments in AI as it should.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
I believe that the Prime Minister of Great Britain, Rishi Sunak, had put together a conference to try to look at setting a an international set of standards for this area. Are you supportive of that? Do you see that as something that is actually likely to happen?
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
Yeah, so in the UK, we’ve got something called the Centre for Data Ethics and innovation, the CDI and the UK Government has published an AI roadmap. And yeah, we’re trying to, you know, do our best to stay, stay, you know, ahead of the game in terms of developing international standards, right. And, you know, I’m supportive of the principle of international standards, of course, you know, we need we need good, good, high quality standards, we need good quality regulation and frameworks, and, you know, we’ve got to ensure that we’re evidence led, but it’s really, really easy to say these things or even have the right intention. What’s really, really difficult is to work out what exactly looks like a good standard, or what’s the right standard, or what’s the right, you know, a legal framework, you know, of course, it all starts a conversation. Nobody has the answers and Initially, and we need these kinds of systems in place, these acts and intentions in place to get those conversations going. But it’s got to be more than just an appearance to be interested it’s got is there’s got to be a real commitment to getting into the roots of these, these issues, because it’s easy to say, yeah, yeah, we need good standards and good policies, but what what exactly do those standards and policies look like? And should they be, you know, sector specific or internationally wide? You know, it’s very, very complex. I don’t think anyone’s got the answers. Just yeah, yeah.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
It’s an interesting area, though. And I believe there are two different kinds of robotics specifically that relate to care. One is social robotics, and the other is care robotics. Could you explain what the differences are between those in this particular sector?
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
Yeah, so yeah, absolutely. So in terms of this, the care sector, what two important types of robotics in this, there’s lots of different types of robotics, right? There’s surgical robotic, there’s military robotics, but in terms of health and social care, two of the most important types of robotics to be aware of our social robotics and care riobotics. So social robotics are, are essentially any type of robot that is designed primarily for social interaction, you know, so, just in terms of conversation, and yeah, and in any kind of sort of social interaction, hugging, you know, cuddling, you know, you have these these various types of soft robots, for example, that people dementia might might enjoy hugging, or, or feeling or, or seeing them as pets, so to speak. And, and so that there’s that kind of interaction, that kind of social interaction, which is a bit different to general conversation, you know, and so those are social robotics. And they are often in the form of human appearance as well, not just pets and animals. So for example, the Pepper Robot, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s designed to have this general humanoid appearance, but really all it does is socially interact isn’t able to do any real care. When I say real care. I’m talking about, maybe I shouldn’t say real care, I’m talking about care in terms of medical and physical intervention, you know, right. That’s where care robotics are a little bit different. So you have at the moment, some robots that are able to lift people out of their bed, for example, or dispense medication, you know, so you know, physical tasks associated with caregiving. If a robot is able to do that, then we would call them that those of care care robotics, but that’s how things are at the moment, I think the technology going forward is that all of these different types, and subsets will will merge into one, you know, so you’ll have, you’ll have robots that are capable of, you know, social interaction, as well as the full array of standard care assistants.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
But there’ll be unlikely to look like a white seal, with big eyes that blink, yes?
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Who knows, maybe they’ll they’ll shape-shift into different appearances.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
So you mentioned the pepper robot, which I believe came out in 2015. So this is not a very long timescale. And in this year was the Tesla Optimus Gen 2 robot, as a researcher, do you find that one technology, you feel personally is more promising than another at this point in time? And if so? Which ones? I’m put you on the spot there…
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
Yeah. I mean, in terms of health and, and social care. I’m not entirely convinced by by any of the latest ones to be honest with you, because they’re all most of the latest ones like the Tesla robot, and there’s the Figure One robot, they’re amazing, absolutely amazing. You’ve got the Astro Bot as well, and they’ve got robots coming out of China all the time. There’s all these amazing, new, sophisticated humanoid robots that are capable of incredible physical tasks, but none of them are really designed with with with care, you know, sensitive, loving care, primarily, you know, they’re primarily more industrial, you know, they’re robots that are designed for general tasks or general physical tasks is especially useful in it, which is especially useful in the industrial setting. So you know, lifting boxes and moving things and you know, fixing things onto other things and and they can get around. And they’re very sophisticated, you know, but generally, that’s that’s where these these robots are at, at the moment. However, you can see within the technology, incredible amount of scope for the robots to become more effective at providing care for you know, frail and vulnerable people. So, you mentioned, you mentioned lifting as one task that a robot might do, as well as delivering tablets of various sorts medication. What other aspects? You mentioned hugging? What are the things could you see robotics doing in a care setting, or specifically to assist elderly people? Yeah, well, I’d say my dad is quite unwell at the moment, he’s very frail. And, you know, he’s recently had a couple of falls, you know, and falls, as we know, are extremely dangerous for for everybody, but particularly frail older adults, right. And I think, you know, one of the things that robot like this could potentially be a game changer in is assisting with people’s mobility as they as they move around, you know, so if if somebody is at risk of falling, perhaps there’s a trip hazard they haven’t seen, or, or they need a little assistance, getting up getting up some stairs or across a across, you know, a step, then, you know, these robots have the ability to do that, you know, and will, this will only improve in the future. So, I think, in terms of general physical assistance, very useful, but but those are robots in terms of AI as well, you know, what’s very useful is being predictive, you know, so based on an individual’s health profile, or risk profile, and what are the likely, you know, short to medium and longer term risks to that person’s health that we need to be mindful of in the overall care package that AI sophisticated AI could, could quite easily and very quickly, and cheaply assess and, and lead to improvements in the overall care package. So there’s lots of very useful potential applications, you know, incredible what range actually
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Turning the lights on, if somebody always gets up between 2:00 and 2:15, to go to the loo, turning the lights are turned on at that hour, I mean, you can just your mind can go into a lot of different directions, in terms of developers of future care environments, architects, designers, these robots, and obviously, they’re going to continue to develop, but presumably, they don’t just wind down power and stand in the middle of the room looking looking lost if people have been interacting with them. So do we need to add extra power supplies in the future? Will we need to have a room that these things go back to that’s identified as either the storage or re-charging area for this technology? Does that become part of an environment that we need to be planning ahead on?
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
100%? under percent? Yeah, I love that you raised that. Because I think a lot of this is one of my concerns. I mean, I’ll get to concerns in a minute. But one of my concerns is that this, the implementation of these technologies, and within the care setting, should not be led by technologists, because technologists don’t understand, you know, the issues of dignity, you know, for example, among older adults in care settings, and this issue you raise is relevant to dignity and infantilization, and issues like that, autonomy, because of course, if this is going to be effective, it needs to feel like the robot really is available, whenever the person really needs it to be available. If they’re going to rely on it, it needs to be reliable, right? Like a human should be. So if the robot suddenly runs out of power in the middle of a task, and they’re, you know, suddenly at risk, or they’re confused by, you know, by what’s going on, because, you know, you and I might think, Oh, it’s a robot, you know, it’s just run out of batteries. You know, we have to be mindful of that, that somebody with perhaps some some level of dementia or cognitive, you know, difficulties might not fully realise that it meant they may indeed, you know, completely anthropomorphize the robot, and view them as a as another carer. And if the carer suddenly, you know, runs out of energy or isn’t available that can be very confusing and very scary and potentially risky for for that person. So this is why I’m saying I’m concerned about technologies leading this area without you know, really co-producing it with people that understand these these issues, because it can’t be what If we’re going to roll out these these technologies, it can’t be that they’re running out of batteries after a couple of hours, and they’re not available or anything like that. But in the future, these issues will, I’m sure, in terms of infrastructure, energy supply, and how these things work, they will be rolled out, but there’ll be a lot of bumps in the road.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Is there a timescale that you have in your in your head for when these technologies are likely to really fully engage with social care? And care?
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
Yeah, I suppose it depends what you mean by fully engaged, I suppose. In terms of, you know, if we’re talking about really effective, what I would call embodied AGI. So, you know, going back to the earlier concepts were discussing about artificial general intelligence AGI, so a robot that could, that could, you know, really be effective in a wide number of areas, not just specific, narrow tasks. I think embodied AGI you know, probably over the next 20 to 30 years, we’ll have that pretty readily available. As so, the technology is moving at an incredible pace, Lori, you know, it could be it could be shorter than that. But I would be surprised if we don’t have it within 20 to 30 years, you know, fully-embodied AGI very effective and providing clinical social domestic care. You know, as as when when I met you, Lori, I was doing a presentation at the Future Care Conference, right? And one of the things I spoke about, was these robots really being in the home or? Right, yes, that’s Yeah, I think that’s something that we should expect to see if you have very able and effective and competent robots that provide really capable care in the next 20 to 30 years, it begs the question as to whether or not we’re going to have fewer care homes, you know, if these robots can care for people at home, more effectively,
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
What does that do for loneliness? And how, how might that replace, or is there a fear of it replacing nursing and, and human contact, particularly when costs become involved? So I mean, the question that I asked you at that conference is, just because humans can do something, does that mean they should? Might we? The loneliness issue that we have now, might that be further exacerbated by having fewer humans engauged with older people?
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
Well, we’re looking at the the evidence as it is the research at the best research evidence as it is, it’s a difficult one to answer really, because technology is going to be evolving. So it’s hard to sort of apply what research and evidence we have today, to potential future technologies and set-ups in 20 to 30 years. But we’ll look at the research at the moment, including the crisis study that we did, we evaluated loneliness in our study. And we found in fact that, you know, having these robots available for social interaction and basic levels of social interaction, which are culturally competent, going back to the previous concepts, actually boosted their mental and cognitive health significantly, compared to control group that didn’t, didn’t have access to these. Because, you know, what we were doing in our study, and what other studies do is essentially give robots to people that would otherwise have just been isolated, and alone and not doing much, you know, otherwise. So we’re sort of supplementing their sort of, you know, experience life experience, in a way, you know, instead of sitting, perhaps, in a room feeling quite isolated, and helpless and alone. You know, now suddenly, they’ve got this technology that they can interact with. And we found that, you know, so long as the technology, you know, so long as the AI is quite effective, we found that was good for mental health and cognitive health. Now, if something’s good for mental health and cognitive health, usually that’s good for other aspects of overall wellbeing, including physical health, and the ability to, to create social capital, which is really important for reducing reducing loneliness. So somebody’s you know, engaged and happier, and, and cognitively a little bit more healthier, it stands to reason that they may in fact, be more able to form social interactions and connections with other people than than they currently do. That’s what the research currently says. Right? going and going into the future 20 to 30 years, the whole game has changed, right? Because, as I said, if we’ve got robots living and staying with you in the home as opposed to the care home where there are other people readily available around you that you could build social interactions with, on the back of improved mental health and cognitive health. And that’s now being removed, now you’re at home, then there is I think there is more of a concern for potential sort of social isolation, loneliness, probably, what’s going to happen is that we will find new ways of bringing people together, perhaps what I envisage, are probably care hubs, you know, so people from time to time will come to connect together in person, but largely stay at home, or have their care provided at home. So we’ll probably find other ways around it. But there’ll be bumps along along the road for sure. And initially, the last thing I’ll say about this is initially, I think they’ll probably the technology, the AI, there’ll be in these robots, you know, it’s going to evolve and improve over time. And while it does, it may just not be as effective as high quality human compensation. But, you know, as the technology evolves, I think it might be difficult. I think we’ll all be surprised in knowing that it might be difficult to discern, what is the difference in quality between AI interactions and human interactions? In fact, we have research already that shows that quite convincingly that patients find AI interactions more empathetic and compassionate than many clinical interactions, that’s a little different to the conversation, we’re having lots of studies that show that when you blind patients to what kind of person giving you the interaction, you know, the AI, or is it a clinician, and then score, which one was more compassionate, which one was more attentive, which one was more personalised, the research has so far shown that the AI is more effective, and all of that, that actually, when you look into it may not be that surprising, because clinicians are burned out, they’re worried about, you know, you know, providing care quickly to many people, you know, and then perhaps going straight to the heart of the clinical issues and sort of skipping the nuances. So, you know,
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
It’s very interesting. It’s very interesting, which particular aspect of AI or aspects are you personally most excited about in this particular sector?
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
Yeah, so I’m really excited for people who are the most vulnerable and most complex needs the most disabled among us to benefit from this if, obviously, we need to ensure that this is rolled out in a way that benefits the most vulnerable and the most in need first, which is why I’m a big proponent for equity over general equality, because we’ve got to make sure we get we get fair access in a way that benefits the most as quickly as possible. If we can do that, then I’ll be very excited because, you know, people with disabilities, I can, you can just see the obvious impact this one very, very quickly. In fact, even now, if you go on to open a eyes, open AI are the company behind Chat GBT. And JChat GBT is the one of the biggest text based AI is at the moment. And they’ve recently developed what’s the what they call them, an Omniverse system, which essentially brings together not just text based AI, but visual, audio, and different other aspects of interaction together into one overall package. And what this has meant is a bit of a game changer for people with visual impairment. For example, they’ve got this wonderful video, you should probably check it out. If you’re listening to me speaking right now, if you go to their YouTube channel, you’ll see what I mean–, of a person with significant visual impairment, using their mobile phones camera, as an as an eye for Chat GBT and, and, and speaking with Chat GBT in the moment, it’s asking the the AI, when is my taxi arriving? And can you let me know when it arrives? Because, you know, something is straightforward is that somebody visual impairment might struggle with. And so the AI says, yeah, the taxi is approaching now is just next few doors now open tickets, you know, be careful, you know, that’s that sort of thing is is an absolute game changer, you know, giving, giving that kind of vision through AI. And you can imagine a robot doing that very, very easily and effectively, you know, a robot assistant with a person with visual impairment, you know, being their eyes and support for that person is a bit of a… that’s a game changer. So I’m really excited for people with disability and accessibility needs the benefit from this.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
And what aspects concern you the most you mentioned at the at the top of the podcast, you had some concerns, what really concerns you the most here?
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
There are, I would say shorter and longer term concerns, the shorter concerns, I mean, these are concerns all the way through. But the concerns that we can grapple with right now are things like, for example, biases in the data, you know, and this goes back to that point about being culturally competent, and, and adapting and not sitting on stereotypes. And a lot of the times the stereotypes have driven from Western notions of, of what things should look like, which lead to biases in the data. And that’s what we often see at the moment of Chat GBT. So for example, it doesn’t have to be of culture, but it could be with with with anything. So for example, I am a big advocate of autistic people, I have an autism charity, as you mentioned kindly at the outset. And something in the summer, that’s very important to me in the autism world is this idea of the social model of autism, viewing autism through the lens of neurodiversity, as opposed to through the lens of a medical model, because the medical model view views autism essentially, like a disease that needs to be eradicated and treated, which is Yeah, yeah. Which is really, really harmful. If you think about it for autistic people’s mental health and general sense of identity, you know, the, the, perhaps people want to get rid of them. And at the moment, if you if you go to these AI systems and type in what is autism, is it a problem, because of the biases within the data that are, in this case, very medicalized biases, it will say things like, you know, autism is a disorder, there are no known cures for it so far. And, and or straight away, you know, if you want autistic person and you’re having those interactions straightaway, that’s a negative impact. And so so we’ve got to be really mindful that the, these these, the data is, and the quality, the interactions, on, you know, offending people aren’t distressing, people aren’t harmful. And that starts with making sure that there are no biases and things are really rigorously, carefully thought through. And we’re slightly rushing to get input implementation out. And that’s, that’s not always the case. But there are many other concerns, like making sure that staff, work staff employment, another big one, for me is making sure that staff employment evolves as opposed to get replaced.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Yeah, from a staf standoint you could see that potentially happening.
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
Yeah. And that goes, that goes back to your earlier question about just because we could do something, you know, should we? I mean, if it means that we’re going to lose all human staff or care staff, do we do we really want to be doing this? I don’t think so. You know, so it’s really about making sure that we use technology wisely in a way that it’s working with human staff as opposed to replacing them. And again, it goes back to that point, I was saying about making sure that technologists aren’t just leading this space in the care space, it’s working with people within the care space to understand what what’s the value, because if we just lead get led by the technologists there is that risk of people thinking, oh, well, the technical technology does all that we don’t need human people. But no, you know, the technology should be there to assist and benefit everybody, including the staff working along alongside them.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
Right, as part of a balanced offer for care. What would you say? If you were to pick one thing that you think is really important for our listeners to take away? AI in their minds from today’s discussion? What would you say that should be?
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
Yeah, that’s a interesting question.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
I like to put you on the spot!
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
No, you’re good, you’re good. You know, I would say to all listeners, look at the robots are coming, you know, there’s no, there’s no two ways about it. So, you know, whether you like it or not, they are coming. And AI is only going to get more intelligent. So this this whole thing is inevitable, right? And whether you like it or not, it’s like going from horses to cars, you know, from, from dial up phones to smartphones, that you know, this, you know, once something like this is in motion, it’s it’s really, really likely to happen. So, you know, what’s really important is get prepared, my message is it’s happening. So why don’t you learn about it and get prepared? If you’re unsure about things or or anxious about things. Now’s the time to Be proactive, don’t be reactive, be proactive. And you know, learn about it, get in conversations and get get prepared so that, you know, you’re not left behind, or you’re you’re not, you’re not benefiting from it in the future, potentially. So my overall message is, you know, it’s coming, get prepared, and, you know, get involved as well, that would be the last thing I would say is, you know, if you want, if you’ve got an opinion about this, you know, and you’re in the care sector, perhaps you’re, you know, your nurse listening right now, and you’ve got a really strong opinion, get your opinion out there, get your voice out there, you know, it’s really important that all of our voices within the space within the sector are heard, so that they’re integrated into, you know, into the standards into these frameworks, as things move forward. So my general sort of takeaway thing is, you know, it’s happening, but there’s still time and opportunity for all of us to get involved in the conversation.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
So engaging would be a lot better than having it happened to you. [I wish I could have just said it like that Lori.]Well, it’s really easy for me to do that, because I’m listening to what you’re saying and coming up with a summary in my head. Thank you so much, that was really illuminating exciting areas to think about, and indeed to engage with and if any of the listeners would like to put forward some comments, we can do some further blogs and help to make the podcast one of the platforms for discussion on this very important topic. Also, just to say we are going to have on the links to this episode, several of the comments that Dr. Papadopoulos made regarding the EU Japanese study, AGI, ASI, etc. We will put links to further information on this so that you can go back and look further into these topics on your own. Thank you very much for joining us.
Dr. Chris Papadopoulos
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Lori Pinkerton-Rolet
And you’ll find more links to information on this topic on the podcast page for this episode at www Third Age Dot Design. Manchester Camerata. The UK orchestra, which runs the Music in Mind programme has been awarded the distinction of being Centre of Excellence from the Power of Music Fund established by the National Academy for Social Prescribing or NASP, in recognition of the potential that music has to improve the well being of people living with dementia. So, through online and in-person training, Music in Mind supports those that they call music champions, who provide music therapy for joy, a sense of connection, and to enhance the overall feeling of well being…without words. Sessions are also devised for different languages and cultures. And importantly, this work has been carried out in partnership with the University of Manchester in the UK, who studies the outcomes and has been refining the music-based therapy techniques since 2012. No previous background in music is required or specially devised spaces for people that need this therapy. You may find inspiration for music therapy in your own region by following the link to Music in Mind on the podcast page for this episode at Third Age Dot Design, including a section on outcomes. Be prepared to be very impressed! Just time them for quick check of our TAD International Events Calendar, which highlights the Alzheimer’s Association International Conference from the 18th of July to the 1st of August in the ‘City of Brotherly Love’- Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. And later on in the year from the 8th to the 10th of October, ‘New Horizons- Innovating for Dementia’ will be in Geneva, Switzerland, and I hope to meet some of our listeners there. As always, you’ll find more information and additional events on the International Events page of our website. Thank you to today’s special guest, Dr. Chris Papadopoulos. To our sponsors Wissner-Bosserhoff. Elevate nursing care with intelligent beds from Wissner-Bosserhoff, blending modern day smart care technology with comfort and empowering caregivers worldwide. To our editor and producer Mike Scales, to Valerie Adler of The Right Website, to Peter Thorne, who composed our theme Music and is playing the piano with Mary Blanchett on flute… and truly to you for listening and learning with us. I’m Lori Pinkerton-Rolet and I do hope you’ll join me for the next one…